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Thread: Ivan Van Sertima(RIP)

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    Ivan Van Sertima(RIP)

    Ivan Van Sertima, Was one of the great Scholars,Historians,Authors,Activist,Freedom fighters of our time(Along with Dr.Chiek Anti Diop), Ivan Van Sertima, Was the author of, 'They came before Columbus', Which depicted the history of Ancient Egyptians, As Black, Here's some more information on Ivan Van Sertima.
    Much Respect
    Mike Barnes

    The Guyana Cultural Association New York Inc. /Guyana Folk Festival committee
    yesterday announced the passing of Dr. Ivan Van Sertima, a former professor of
    the University of Rutgers and an important son of Guyana’s soil.

    Ivan Van Sertima, born January 26, 1935, is a Guyanese-British historian,
    linguist and anthropologist noted for his Afrocentric theory of pre-Columbian
    contact between Africa and the Americas.

    Van Sertima was born in Kitty when Guyana was still a British colony and
    remained a British citizen up until his demise. Van Sertima’s, father Frank
    Obermuller, was a trade union leader. Van Sertima completed his primary and
    secondary education then commenced poetry writing.
    In 1959 he began pursuit of his university education in London where, in
    addition to producing an array of creative writings; he completed undergraduate
    studies in African languages and literature at the School of Oriental and
    African Studies at the University of London in 1969, and graduated with
    honours.
    During his studies he became fluent in Swahili and Hungarian dialects.

    He worked for several years in Great Britain as a journalist, delivering weekly
    broadcasts to the Caribbean and Africa. In doing field work in Africa, he
    compiled a dictionary of Swahili legal terms.
    In 1970 Van Sertima immigrated to the United States, where he entered Rutgers
    University in New Brunswick, New Jersey for graduate work.
    Van Sertima began his more than 30-year teaching career at Rutgers as an
    instructor in 1972 and completed his master’s degree in 1977. He was Associate
    Professor of African Studies in the Department of Africana Studies.

    Van Sertima has written books in which he argues that the Ancient Egyptians
    were black and his 1976 book “They Came Before Columbus” was a bestseller
    and achieved widespread fame for his claims of prehistoric African influences in
    Central and South America.

    It did not receive much professional attention when published, and has been
    criticized by academic specialists.

    On July 7, 1987 Van Sertima appeared before a United States Congressional
    committee to challenge giving credit for the discovery of America to Christopher
    Columbus.

    Ivan Van Sertima - Africans In Science Video (View Online: http://bit.ly/ mx0FJ

    Ivan Van Sertima's books:


    African Presence in Early America

    Price: $24.95 - Paperback

    Book Description
    This volume presents what is presently known about the links between Africa and America before the age of Columbus. It makes a convincing case for pre-Columbian contacts between Africa and America before the era of the slave trade. The contributors draw upon the evidence of cultures in private collections and findings from excavations, and evidence of ancient African mathematics, astronomy, map-making, scripts, navigations, trade routes, pyramidal structures, linguistic connections, and technological and ritual complexes. The volume is profusely illustrated. Many readers will find the evidence presented here startling.

    African Presence in Early Asia

    Price: $29.95 - Paperback

    The story of the African presence in early Asia is as fascinating as it is obscure. It covers a period of more than 500,000 years beginning with the first Homo erectus migrations out of Africa. Both Peking and Java Man were only regional varieties of these early Africoid hominids. The story continues with the first modern human populations (Homo sapiens), the Diminutive Blacks, who traveled and sojourned from one corner of Asia to the other, beginning perhaps 90,000 years ago. The Diminutive Blacks were followed by others of slightly larger bodily proportions and further distinguished by straight to wavy hair textures. Variously called Austrics, Austro-Asiatics, Mons, Mundas, Kolarians, and Veddas, these people were probably at their zenith 25,000 years ago, and are still prevalent in large numbers throughout Asia. Blacks were also the first in the development of Asia’s early civilizations. The hard factual evidence has borne this out in case after case.


    African Presence in Early Europe

    Price: $24.95 - Paperback

    Customer Review
    There is so much information about the African contribution to world civilization that merely contemplating it and its spiritual/cultural implications will create a transformative hunger in you for knowledge that otherwise would have never materialized. This book is a great appetizer in that context--and a great introduction to more than two centuries of wonderful full course meals.

    Blacks in Science: Ancient and Modern

    Price: $29.95 - Paperback

    The lineaments of a lost science are now emerging and we can glimpse some of the once buried reefs of this remarkable civilization. A lot more remains to be revealed. But enough has been found in the past few years to make it quite clear that the finest heart of African world receded into the shadow while its broken bones were put on spectacular display. The image of the African, therefore, has been built up so far upon his lowest common denominator. In the new vision of the ancestor, we need to turn our eyes away from the periphery of the primitive to the more dynamic source of genius in the heartland of the African world.


    Early America Revisited

    Price: $24.95 - Paperback

    Customer Review
    Another excellent work by Van Sertima! He investigates information from several disciplines to examine Pre-Columbian America. His notes/references are extensive as usual. Early America Revisited should be in every library, if not in every High School history classroom, right beside They Came Before Columbus....


    Egypt: Child of Africa

    Price: $29.95 - Paperback

    Book Description
    Of the twelve anthologies by the Journal of African Civilizations, this is the fourth volume devoted to the study of ancient Egypt. The other three are: Nile Valley Civilizations (now discontinued) Great African Thinkers and Egypt Revisited. Our heavy concentration on this subject is neither accidental nor indulgent. It is the most hotly debated issue in the field of world civilization studies.






    Egypt Revisited
    Price: $24.95 - Paperback

    Egypt has created the greatest and most enduring of all ancient civilizations. Its remarkable achievements in the arts and sciences, its influence upon the philosophy of both Europe and Asia, is seldom denied. Few studies, however, admits the significant, indeed predominant, role of Africans in the building of this civilization. Migrants and invaders from the North and East, who made very little real impact upon the classical culture of the Egyptian until late in the day, are given all the credit for this most illustrious chapter in the history of civilization. This book and its successor (to be published in the summer of 1990) are designed to restore to the fountainhead of African civilization, even as Greece has been placed at the fountainhead of European civilization studies.




    The Golden Age of the Moor

    Price: $29.95 - Paperback

    It is generally assumed that the movement of Africans into Europe, in significantly large numbers and into positions of real power, did not occur until the Muslim invasion of Spain in 711 A.D. In Al-Makkary’s History of the Mohammedan Dynasties in Spain, however, we learn of a great drought that afflicted Spain about three thousand years ago, a catastrophe that was followed not long afterwards by an invasion from Africa. This, of course, had nothing to do with the medieval Moors, with which this book is primarily concerned, but it is worth noting here because it actually established an ancient African dynasty in Spain, a fact that is omitted from the official histories.






    Great African Thinkers: Cheikh Anta Diop

    Price: $24.95 - Paperback

    Book Description
    It is not for us to say that the death of a man comes too early or too late. Fate is far too complex. But let us venture to say that we in America needed a guide and teacher like Diop. Africa, above all, needed a leader like Diop. Had he lived to become President of Senegal, he might have piloted some of the nations of West Africa into the first stages of a federated state. His passing, therefore, is a very great blow to us all. Yet history teaches us that men like these do not die at the time of their deaths. Often it is that the fall of a great teacher or prophet is the beginning of the rise of his ideas. So let it be with Diop…




    Great Black Leaders

    Price: $28.95 - Paperback

    One thing stands out above all else in our survey of these remarkable men and women. That the struggle for a changing world occupies both a tragic and hopeful dimension. That again the light of the human spirit shines brightest against the shadow of almost invincible odds and that disaster seems to stalk anyone who challenges things as they are in the hope of transforming them into things as they should be. Disaster strikes the hero in the form of an assassin’s bullet, a grievous slander, exile or the prison house, deportation or betrayal or (most tragic of all) the loss of the love of one’s people through a misinterpretation of one’s role or a misunderstanding of one’s actions. Heroes are usually tragic figures who seldom die quietly in their sleep, yet our memory and vision of them should bring us to a new faith, not deepen our sense of despair. It is often through the crucifixion of these figures that we glimpse something noble and beautiful beyond their suffering and their death. It is this light they spark in our souls against the overwhelming appearance of darkness that rekindles our hope in the possibilities of rebirth in the world.






    They Came Before Columbus

    Price: $15.95 - Paperback

    Book Description
    This book makes it possible for us to see clearly the unmistakable face and handprint of Black Africans in Pre-Columbian America, and their overwhelming impact on the civilization they found here.





    Black Women in Antiquity


    Price: $24.95 - Paperback

    Customer Review
    Without being too lengthy, this book thoroughly covers the real and mythical images of the Black woman. It is a wonderful collection of essays from various authors such as the late, great John Henrik Clarke. Historical without Afrocentricism. Balanced yet interesting. Do yourself a favor. Purchase the book and order tapes from the back of the book. Another fearless accomplishment by Van Sertima.




    They Came Before Columbus
    Dr. Ivan Van Sertima (1 CD) - $10.00



    Black Women in Antiquity
    Dr. Ivan Van Sertima (1 CD) - $10.00

  2. #2
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    R.i.p.

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    Damm!!!...Knowledge gone :(
    All I want is the music and no one will get hurt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigshawn View Post
    Damm!!!...Knowledge gone :(
    NAw fam, the knowledge is still here...it's in all those books he wrote. R.I.P.
    righteous knowledge allah

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    Went to listen to him speak a few times. He was a cool cat
    As for the charges against me, I am unconcerned. I am beyond their timid lying morality, and so I am beyond caring.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barnes View Post
    Van Sertima has written books in which he argues that the Ancient Egyptians
    were black and his 1976 book “They Came Before Columbus” was a bestseller
    and achieved widespread fame for his claims of prehistoric African influences in
    Central and South America.

    It did not receive much professional attention when published, and has beencriticized by academic specialists.







    Of course, my condolences to the Van Sertima family HOWEVER anyone who took Africana studies understood that his work especially "THEY CAME BEFORE COLUMBUS" was not to be taken seriously...too many faults on that book.

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    Ivan Van Sertima(RIP)

    El Mayimbe, Would you care to eleborate on your Africana Studies, In regards to the many faults in Ivan Van Sertima's books(Especially, 'They came Before Columbus'), MarkB, I had The pleasure of hearing Ivan Van Sertima speak at Morris Brown College in Atlanta in 1985
    (With, Dr.Ron Karanga/Founder of Kawanzza), Hosea Williams(SCLC)Rip,Stokley

    Carmichael/Rip,Sonia Sanchez,Etc, The Lecture was very Inspiring,Uplifting,Informative,Enlightening, In regards to history and black History, My man.
    Much Respect
    Mike Barnes

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barnes View Post
    El Mayimbe, Would you care to eleborate on your Africana Studies, In regards to the many faults in Ivan Van Sertima's books(Especially, 'They came Before Columbus'), MarkB, I had The pleasure of hearing Ivan Van Sertima speak at Morris Brown College in Atlanta in 1985
    (With, Dr.Ron Karanga/Founder of Kawanzza), Hosea Williams(SCLC)Rip,Stokley

    Carmichael/Rip,Sonia Sanchez,Etc, The Lecture was very Inspiring,Uplifting,Informative,Enlightening, In regards to history and black History, My man.
    Much Respect
    Mike Barnes


    im @work so i cant give you a long rebuttal (ill give a longer reply later on), but off the top of my head I recall a preofessor of mine (AT HUNTER COLLEGE) mentioning how the Phonecians and Egyptians did not collaborate on oversea adventures as Van Sertima's book suggested. This was an important factor since alot of his assesment was based on the Olmec heads and how their helmets resembled that of an Egyptian soldier.

    In other words, the Phonecians were the navy, (providing the ships) and the egyptians were the marines landing on the shores of the americas

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    I remember going to hear Ivan van Sertima speak at University of Illinois in the early 90's. Cool guy and funny.
    "I bet you argue with yourself just to make a point." -- bkny11203
    Don't hate the black, don't hate the white. If you get bit, just hate the bite -- Sylvester Stewart aka Sly Stone
    I only debate my equals, all others I teach. -- John Henrik Clarke
    Frustration leads to long-term memory -- anonymous
    http://www.zshare.net/audio/185004588c9e04
    djmarbll.podomatic.com
    http://www.soundclick.com/bands/defa...?bandID=783049

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    Quote Originally Posted by El Mayimbe View Post
    im @work so i cant give you a long rebuttal (ill give a longer reply later on), but off the top of my head I recall a preofessor of mine (AT HUNTER COLLEGE) mentioning how the Phonecians and Egyptians did not collaborate on oversea adventures as Van Sertima's book suggested. This was an important factor since alot of his assesment was based on the Olmec heads and how their helmets resembled that of an Egyptian soldier.

    In other words, the Phonecians were the navy, (providing the ships) and the egyptians were the marines landing on the shores of the americas

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    Quote Originally Posted by righteous knowledge View Post
    NAw fam, the knowledge is still here...it's in all those books he wrote. R.I.P.
    True that
    All I want is the music and no one will get hurt.

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    R.I.P

    Now theres no other scholars and historians of repute left.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barnes View Post
    El Mayimbe, Would you care to eleborate on your Africana Studies, In regards to the many faults in Ivan Van Sertima's books(Especially, 'They came Before Columbus'), MarkB, I had The pleasure of hearing Ivan Van Sertima speak at Morris Brown College in Atlanta in 1985
    (With, Dr.Ron Karanga/Founder of Kawanzza), Hosea Williams(SCLC)Rip,Stokley

    Carmichael/Rip,Sonia Sanchez,Etc, The Lecture was very Inspiring,Uplifting,Informative,Enlightening, In regards to history and black History, My man.
    Much Respect
    Mike Barnes



    as promised to you Mike & Co.




    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_va...ma#cite_note-2


    "Criticisms
    Van Sertima has been criticized by academics for making ill-founded Afrocentric claims. A lengthy 1997 Journal of Current Anthropology article criticized in detail many elements of Van Sertima's 1976 book They Came Before Columbus.[2] The book had not earlier received a thorough professional academic review. They stated that in claiming African origins for prehistoric Olmec culture (in present-day Mexico), Van Sertima had ignored the work of Central American researchers. They stated no evidence of a prehistoric African influence or presence had been found in controlled archeological excavations in the New World. The reviewers also wrote that Olmec stone heads only superficially appear to be African and did not resemble the Nubian populations which Van Sertima claimed as their originators. They ruled as "fallacious" his claims for the diffusion of pyramid building and mummification. In addition, they accused Van Sertima's cultural outlook of being disparaging to Native American achievements. Van Sertima has sparred with some of his critics, but he did not respond to the 1997 Journal of Current Anthropology criticism.[3]
    In a New York Times 1977 review of Van Sertima works, British scholar Glyn Daniel called Van Sertima's work "ignorant rubbish”, concluding that the writings of Van Sertima (and Barry Fell, whom he was also reviewing) “give us badly argued theories based on fantasies.”[4]. Dean R. Snow, a professor of anthropology, in 1981 wrote that Van Sertima "uses the now familiar technique of stringing together bits of carefully selected evidence, each surgically removed from the context that would give it a rational explanation." He goes on, "The findings of professional archaeologists and physical anthropologists are misrepresented so that they seem to support the [Van Sertima] hypothesis.""




    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------





    Olmec skeletons African? No, just poor scholarship

    "As has been pointed out to you by other posters, there is currently a
    debate as to what the best definition of Olmec is. Many archaeologists
    now think there is an "Olmec style" found throughout most of Mesoamerica
    which is an amalgamation of traits from different regions. These
    archaeologists reserve the term Olmec to refer to a cultural group living
    in the Gulf Coast of Mexico during the time period 1500-500 B.C. Bernal's
    reference is now woefully dated and more recent work in the Valley of
    Oaxaca shows that certain "Olmec" traits actually appear here earlier
    than they do in the Olmec Gulf Coast heartland. This is true for other
    regions of Mesoamerica as well. While Coe might still be sticking to the
    notion of the diffusion of an Olmec style from a single source, many others
    have abandoned this notion in favor of one that sees the origin of traits in
    various areas and its diffusion associated with cultural contacts by multiple
    societies at a roughly equivalent stage of cultural evolution."






    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------







    Early theories attributing Mesoamerican civilization to lost civilizations continue to deprive Native Americans of their cultural legacy today


    'Van Sertima laid out a complex scenario of transatlantic voyages that relied upon two basic pieces of evidence: African plants in the New World, and African faces carved in ancient Olmec stones. The botanical evidence may be disposed of in a few sentences, but the stone heads will take a longer, more circuitous route to understand.

    The botanical evidence for transoceanic contact basically boils down to the African bottle-gourd, which, Michael Coe (2001b:34) points out, was the first domesticate of Mesoamerican peoples, cultivated around 6500 BC. Van Sertima had argued that African voyagers brought the plant to the New World, the oldest African bottle gourds cultivated in the Old World date only to 3000 BC: "Thus gourds were first cultivated in the New World much earlier than in Egypt [Haslip-Viera et al. 1997:429]." For knowledge of gourd cultivation to travel from Africa to Mexico, it would be necessary for the Africans to have been growing the gourd before the Mexicans, to whom they supposedly gave it. Furthermore, since the gourd is capable of traveling across the ocean unharmed, Haslip-Viera, Montellano and Barbour (1997:429) argue that "there is no need to posit human transport to the New World" because there is no other evidence of introduced African species before Columbus. "



    "In 1995, alternative historian Graham Hancock released his massive tome, Fingerprints of the Gods, in which he expanded on the old diffusionist theories for the origin of the Olmec. In claiming that the Olmec heads were of African origin, Hancock (1995: 131) argued that "It would probably be impossible . . . for a sculptor to invent the different combined characteristics of an authentic racial type. The portrayal of an authentic combination of racial characteristics therefore implied strongly that a human model had been used." These traits referred to were apparently the broad noses and thick lips of the Olmec heads, which van Sertima, Hancock and others link to Africans.

    However, as any biological anthropologist could demonstrate, phenotypes have virtually nothing to do with race. As Jurmain, Nelson, Kilgore and Trevathan (1998:108) note, race is not a biological concept: "the amount of genetic variation accounted for by differences between groups is vastly exceeded by the variation that exists within groups." As a result, "race is a meaningless concept [Jurmain et al. 1998:108]." So having thus established that there are no races to be depicted on the Olmec heads, next it must be shown that the heads do not share the same characteristics with their supposed models.
    "





    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------





    Query: Ivan Van Sertima


    "Van Sertima's work is given absolutely no credence by scholars in
    pre-columbian history. I don't think I would compare it to Von Daniken.
    There is at least an attempt on the part of Van Sertima to follow
    scholarly practices.



    Following a long line of scholars, one of Van Sertima's pieces of
    evidence is the similarity between Egyptian pyramids and Mexican
    pyramids. This ignores the several thousand years that separate the
    construction of pyramids in Egypt and pyramids in Mexico.



    Also pyramids in Egypt were not located in the major settlements, but
    built in rural areas as burials for the leaders. Egyptian pyramids are
    constructed entirely from limestone blocks, and do not contain a
    structure on top of the pyramid. Each pyramid contained the burial of a
    single ruler, with some associated burials.



    In contrast, pyramids in Mesoamerica were constructed in the center of
    their settlements. Most of the bigger pyramids were built on top of
    smaller pyramids, with some pyramids, when excavated showing a series of
    construction sequences. Mesoamerican pyramids generally have an earthen
    core, with a facing of limestone blocks. Mesoamerican pyramids may
    contain the burials of multiple kings, with the burial of each king
    being associated with a different construction phase. Finally,
    Mesoamerica pyramids are flat on top, with a building (a temple) being
    placed on top of the pyramid



    In regards to the Olmec, people debate whether they had true pyramids.
    At La Venta, the "pyramid" is constructed entirely of dirt, with no
    limestone facing, and the "pyramid" is circular. "




    "Dear Aztlan list:



    Recently when I was briefly discussing the pre-Columbian background in
    my U.S. history survey course, a student claimed that the Olmec heads
    were made by Africans. Her source was Ivan Van Sertima's THEY CAME
    BEFORE COLUMBUS and EARLY AMERICA REVISITED. My Ph.D. specialty is WWII,
    and it has been many years since I had classes in pre-Columbian American
    history. So I realize that my knowledge and travels in the area are
    dated. Currently, does the academic community give much credence to
    Sertima's arguments? Is his use of evidence solid and believable? Has
    his thesis been accepted by scholars of Mexican history and
    anthropology? Or is his treatment akin to Von Daniken's earlier CHARIOTS
    OF THE GODS?

    Thanks.

    Cal Christman



    Calvin L. Christman, Ph.D.
    Liberal Arts Division
    Cedar Valley College
    3030 N. Dallas Ave.
    Lancaster, Texas 75134-3799
    972-860-8136"







    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------







    ARCHAEOLOGY AND THE ETHNIC ADVOCATE


    "Irvan Van Sertima’s book They Came Before Columbus uses the now familiar technique of stringing together bits of carefully selected evidence, each surgically removed from the context that would give it a rational explanation. Olmec heads from Mexico are cited along with other Native American artifacts as looking Negroid. We are told that there were black captains in the Egyptian navy so that Thor Heyerdahl’s Kon-Tiki adventure in a papyrus boat can be pulled in as evidence. The findings of professional archaeologists and physical anthropologists are misrepresented so that they seem to support the hypothesis. Botanical connections are also cited. But without the arsenal of fakes available to Viking and Phoenician enthusiasts, the African connection has yet to attract popular attention."









    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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    Robbing Native American Cultures: Van Sertima's Afrocentricity and the Olmecs
    by Gabriel Haslip-Viera, Bernard Ortiz de Montellano, and Warren Barbour
    Current Anthropology, Volume 38, Number 3, June 1997, pp 419-441
    Reproduced with permission.





    "According to Van Sertima's hypothesis, the Nubian rulers of ancient Egypt (25th dynasty, 712-664 B.C.) organized an expedition with the help of the Phoenicians to obtain various commodities, including iron, from sources on the Atlantic coast of North Africa, Europe, and the British Isles during the late 8th or early 7th century B.C. This expedition allegedly sailed from the Nile Delta or the Levant across the Mediterranean, through the Pillars of Hercules, and down the Atlantic coast of North Africa, where it was caught in some current or storm that sent it across the Atlantic to the Americas. Following the prevailing wind and ocean currents, the expedition allegedly sailed or drifted westward from some unspecified location in the eastern Caribbean or the Bahamas to the Gulf Coast of Mexico, where it came into contact with the receptive but inferior Olmecs. According to the scenario at this point, the Olmecs presumably accepted the leaders of the Nubian/Egyptian expedition as their rulers ("black warrior dynasts"), and these individuals, in turn, created, inspired, or influenced the creation of the Olmec civilization, which in turn influenced Monte Albán, Teotihuacan, the Classic Maya, and all the other Mesoamerican civilizations that followed. [9]"







    The Colossal Olmec Heads

    The main pieces of evidence presented by Van Sertima are the monumental carved basalt Olmec heads. To a lay observer, it seems at first glance that these grey, "black"-looking heads, with their thick lips and flat noses, must be images of Africans. This impression makes the other claims appear to be support for an obvious conclusion. However, this is a fundamental error. The people claimed by Van Sertima and other Afrocentrists to have influenced the Olmecs (and to be the models for the heads) are Nubians or Egyptians, that is, North and East Africans, whereas the slave ancestors of African-Americans came primarily from tropical West Africa. These groups are very different and do not look alike. [17] Flat noses are particularly inappropriate as racial markers, because the shape of the nose is primarily a function of climatic factors such as the ambient temperature and the moisture content of the air.




    Monument 5, San Lorenzo, front and rear views. (Drawing by Felipe Dávalos, reprinted from Coe and Diehl [1980], courtesy of Michael D. Coe.


    Tzotzil from Chiapas. (Photo B Reyes, reprinted from Morley [1947].

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    Pyramids Schmeramids: Why the Pyramids of Egypt and Mesoamerica
    Do Not Share a Common Source




    "Perhaps the most damning argument against hyper-diffusionist theories involving the pyramids of Egypt and Mexico is that even if one allows for the transportation of knowledge via transatlantic contact of some undefined sort, it would still not explain the time lag between their dates of construction, a time lag of not centuries but of millennia."

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Mayimbe View Post
    Robbing Native American Cultures: Van Sertima's Afrocentricity and the Olmecs
    by Gabriel Haslip-Viera, Bernard Ortiz de Montellano, and Warren Barbour
    Current Anthropology, Volume 38, Number 3, June 1997, pp 419-441
    Reproduced with permission.





    "According to Van Sertima's hypothesis, the Nubian rulers of ancient Egypt (25th dynasty, 712-664 B.C.) organized an expedition with the help of the Phoenicians to obtain various commodities, including iron, from sources on the Atlantic coast of North Africa, Europe, and the British Isles during the late 8th or early 7th century B.C. This expedition allegedly sailed from the Nile Delta or the Levant across the Mediterranean, through the Pillars of Hercules, and down the Atlantic coast of North Africa, where it was caught in some current or storm that sent it across the Atlantic to the Americas. Following the prevailing wind and ocean currents, the expedition allegedly sailed or drifted westward from some unspecified location in the eastern Caribbean or the Bahamas to the Gulf Coast of Mexico, where it came into contact with the receptive but inferior Olmecs. According to the scenario at this point, the Olmecs presumably accepted the leaders of the Nubian/Egyptian expedition as their rulers ("black warrior dynasts"), and these individuals, in turn, created, inspired, or influenced the creation of the Olmec civilization, which in turn influenced Monte Albán, Teotihuacan, the Classic Maya, and all the other Mesoamerican civilizations that followed. [9]"







    The Colossal Olmec Heads

    The main pieces of evidence presented by Van Sertima are the monumental carved basalt Olmec heads. To a lay observer, it seems at first glance that these grey, "black"-looking heads, with their thick lips and flat noses, must be images of Africans. This impression makes the other claims appear to be support for an obvious conclusion. However, this is a fundamental error. The people claimed by Van Sertima and other Afrocentrists to have influenced the Olmecs (and to be the models for the heads) are Nubians or Egyptians, that is, North and East Africans, whereas the slave ancestors of African-Americans came primarily from tropical West Africa. These groups are very different and do not look alike. [17] Flat noses are particularly inappropriate as racial markers, because the shape of the nose is primarily a function of climatic factors such as the ambient temperature and the moisture content of the air.




    Monument 5, San Lorenzo, front and rear views. (Drawing by Felipe Dávalos, reprinted from Coe and Diehl [1980], courtesy of Michael D. Coe.


    Tzotzil from Chiapas. (Photo B Reyes, reprinted from Morley [1947].
    errr....



    Amerigo Vespucci’s Account of His First Voyage (1497)
    http://www.bartelby.com/43/3.html

    We arranged our departure, and seven men, of whom five were wounded, took an island-canoe, and with seven prisoners that we gave them, four women and three men, returned to their (own) country full of gladness, wondering at our strength: and we thereon made sail for Spain with 222 captive slaves: and reached the port of Calis (Cadiz) on the 15th day of October, 1498, where we were well received and sold our slaves. Such is what befell me, most noteworthy, in this my first voyage.



    In any case. at least 3,000 Americans are known to have been shipped to Europe between 1493 and 1501, with the likely total being possibly double that. Most were sent to the Seville area, where they seem to show up in the slave market as negros without a place of origin being mentioned
    -AFRICANS AND NATIVE AMERICANS:The Language of Race and the Evolution of Red-Black Peoples by Jack D. Forbes

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by alvin View Post
    errr....



    Amerigo Vespucci’s Account of His First Voyage (1497)
    http://www.bartelby.com/43/3.html



    -AFRICANS AND NATIVE AMERICANS:The Language of Race and the Evolution of Red-Black Peoples by Jack D. Forbes






    Africans coming over with the Spaniards? No shit sherlock, did you study about the "Reconquista" as Ive asked you btw?




    btw, have the RESPECT to read what I posted as I still have a shred of patience to read what you've cited
    Last edited by El Mayimbe; 06-03-2009 at 03:47 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by El Mayimbe View Post
    Africans coming over with the Spaniards? No shit sherlock, did you study about the "Reconquista" as Ive asked you btw?




    btw, have the RESPECT to read what I posted as I still have a shred of patience to read what you've cited
    ???

    Where have my references discussed Africans "coming over with the Spaniards" or the Reconquista...????

    What does a map of Spain have to do with the fact that 3,000 Americans(ie. Indians) were shipped to Spain and tagged as "negros" between the years 1493 and 1501, with Vespucci documenting the fact that he himself picked up a load of these "negros" from the shores of America during his first voyage to the New World in 1497????

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    http://jcolavito.tripod.com/lostcivilizations/id23.html

    http://www.famsi.org/pipermail/aztla...ry/001719.html

    Sorry to bust your bubble BUT...this 'scholarly work' is a load of bullshit...plain and simple...
    Last edited by alvin; 06-03-2009 at 04:06 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alvin View Post
    ???

    Where have my references discussed Africans "coming over with the Spaniards" or the Reconquista...????

    What does a map of Spain have to do with the fact that 3,000 Americans(ie. Indians) were shipped to Spain and tagged as "negros" between the years 1493 and 1501, with Vespucci documenting the fact that he himself picked up a load of these "negros" from the shores of America during his first voyage to the New World in 1497????




    its simple Alvin, the europeans never encountered Ameridians beforehand. Their only reference for people of color were asians & africans. This was an era of clashing civilizations across the atlantic ocean.






    And I brought up the Reconquista because it had alot to do with the MOORS, your favorite subject, but we can discuss that on another post so you can get that special attention you crave for on this forum.








    edit

    ps Alvin, Im gonna cite a passage from your Vespucci statement:


    "They are a people smooth and clean of body, because of so continually washing themselves as they do…. Amongst those people we did not learn that they had any law, nor can they be called Moors nor Jews, and (they are) worse than pagans: because we did not observe that they offered any sacrifice: nor even had they a house of prayer: their manner of living I judge to be Epicurean: their dwellings are in common: and their houses (are) made in the style of huts, but strongly made, and constructed with very large trees, and covered over with palm-leaves, secure against storms and winds: and in some places (they are) of so great breadth and length, that in one single house we found there were 600 souls:"
    Last edited by El Mayimbe; 06-03-2009 at 05:08 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alvin View Post
    http://jcolavito.tripod.com/lostcivilizations/id23.html

    http://www.famsi.org/pipermail/aztla...ry/001719.html

    Sorry to bust your bubble BUT...this 'scholarly work' is a load of bullshit...plain and simple...




    you know what Alvin, you're right. the sources i posted are utter bullshit




    keep being a disgrace to black people all over the world and thank you for also solidifying that Texas is a breeding ground for idiots

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    Quote Originally Posted by El Mayimbe View Post
    you know what Alvin, you're right. the sources i posted are utter bullshit




    keep being a disgrace to black people all over the world and thank you for also solidifying that Texas is a breeding ground for idiots
    I have asked before, so I will ask once again...Can we please keep the great state of Texas out of the conversations. Thank you in advance
    All I want is the music and no one will get hurt.

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    Ivan Van Sertima(RIP)

    El Mayimbe, Good lookin with the information, My man, I'll have to go back and read, 'They came before Columbus', Again, Just to compare, the information that you have submitted to this thread, With, The information and research, That, Ivan Van Sertima, Attained, For his book, El Mayimbe, What were you Africana Studies Professor's, Thought's, On

    Scholars,Historians, Like, Dr.Chiek Anti Diop(The Cultural Unity of Black Africa), John Henrick Clarke, Carter G.Woodson(The Mis-Education of the Negro),George James(Stolen Legacy), Dr. Ben Yosef Ben-Jochannon(The Black Man of the Nile and his family),Etc, El Mayimbe, I'm just asking this question, Because, I've seen more than a few debates on

    Black history, Featuring, Some of the cats, That, I've mentioned(Live and ontape), Where, Alot of cats who challenged well-Noted, Black Historians and Scholars,Egyptologist, Were Dis-mantled, In regards to false information, My man(El Mayimbe, I'm, Not building about Your African Studies Professor's, Information, Being false, I'm just stating that, There's

    Been alot of cats, Who have been embarassed, In regards to challenging, Well-respect black Historian,Scholars,Egyptologist, In Debates, For decades, In regards to History, My man, El Mayimbe, I would like to build with you, In regards to your information, For a few,

    My man, Kemmot,Shawn, There are more than a few, Well-Respected, Historians and Scholars left My man/LOL), Cats/Young ladies, Such as, Dr.Francis Cress-Welsing, Dr.Na'am Akbar, Dhruba Bin-Wahad, Dr.Mulana Karanga, Dr.Tony Martin, Dr.Ben(Still recovering from an illness, Dr.Ben's in a retirement Facilty in the Bronx,New York), Dr.Richard King, Dr.Edward Crosby, Etc.
    Much Respect
    Mike Barnes

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigshawn View Post
    I have asked before, so I will ask once again...Can we please keep the great state of Texas out of the conversations. Thank you in advance


    Big Shawn, I do apologize.......its a very frustrating prospect when you're debating with someone like Alvin, whom @1st i had alot of respect when he came to the board and posted many interesting topics yet fails to utilize reasoning when his statements are challenged even when we rely on his sources.


    Personally I feel that these are serious topics that need to be addressed in a proper manner since it would be questioned in the scientific community.

    If you're going to present ANYTHING in regards to black history (which i view as American history) then you MUST come correct and not have any faults or mistakes for it surely would be debated upon. Again, hence why Alvin posts upsets me especially when some here actually go along with what he states.











    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barnes View Post
    El Mayimbe, Good lookin with the information, My man, I'll have to go back and read, 'They came before Columbus', Again, Just to compare, the information that you have submitted to this thread, With, The information and research, That, Ivan Van Sertima, Attained, For his book, El Mayimbe, What were you Africana Studies Professor's, Thought's, On

    Scholars,Historians, Like, Dr.Chiek Anti Diop(The Cultural Unity of Black Africa), John Henrick Clarke, Carter G.Woodson(The Mis-Education of the Negro),George James(Stolen Legacy), Dr. Ben Yosef Ben-Jochannon(The Black Man of the Nile and his family),Etc, El Mayimbe, I'm just asking this question, Because, I've seen more than a few debates on

    Black history, Featuring, Some of the cats, That, I've mentioned(Live and ontape), Where, Alot of cats who challenged well-Noted, Black Historians and Scholars,Egyptologist, Were Dis-mantled, In regards to false information, My man(El Mayimbe, I'm, Not building about Your African Studies Professor's, Information, Being false, I'm just stating that, There's

    Been alot of cats, Who have been embarassed, In regards to challenging, Well-respect black Historian,Scholars,Egyptologist, In Debates, For decades, In regards to History, My man, El Mayimbe, I would like to build with you, In regards to your information, For a few,

    My man, Kemmot,Shawn, There are more than a few, Well-Respected, Historians and Scholars left My man/LOL), Cats/Young ladies, Such as, Dr.Francis Cress-Welsing, Dr.Na'am Akbar, Dhruba Bin-Wahad, Dr.Mulana Karanga, Dr.Tony Martin, Dr.Ben(Still recovering from an illness, Dr.Ben's in a retirement Facilty in the Bronx,New York), Dr.Richard King, Dr.Edward Crosby, Etc.
    Much Respect
    Mike Barnes





    No problem Mike. I only did dwelled upon the available information thats provided online since it too has been a while since Ive read the book and read its rebuttals. The article from the journal "Current Anthropology" which came out on June 1997 was the strongest challenge to Van Sertima's book and most accepted. Even Van Sertima addressed the piece on one of his research books


    http://www.hallofmaat.com/modules.ph...article&sid=73






    Mike, you mentioned John Henrick Clarke, he taught at my alma mater (Hunter College), but i never had the opportunity to attend one of his classes. The debate upon Van Sertima's "They Came Before....." was brought up by several professors in the Africana, Latin American & anthropology departments but it wasn't such a big topic since many from my recollection did not take the book as legitimate scientific research. i cannot name you off the top of my head of exactly which professor said what but i do recall that Clarke supported Van Sertima's book though. I do recall though one of the African professors mentioning that some of Van Sertima's sources were actually racist european historians.






    My whole issue with Van Sertima's book is how it has been assumed as scientific fact still to this day by SOME afrocentric scholars. Pre Colombian Africans may or may have not traveled to the Americas, thats up for debate but to go ahead and loosely state with faulty evidence that they actually jump started the native civilization in mesoamerica without giving credit to the Olmecs, Aztecs and Mayans for their own self development was the heart of dilemma many scientists and professors have against these claims.

    It is reminicent of early European historians and scientists who hypothesized that africans could not have built the great pyramids since they lacked the knowledge without European guidance.




    From my PERSONAL ASSESSMENT, many Afrocentrists need to quit using false information in their attempts in belittling other civilizations just to make themselves feel better. It not only makes them appear foolish but it is borderline racist. Any strong claim such as Africans discovering and cultivating early america will be profoundly scrutinized so the evidence has to be tested and retested again. In the case of Van Sertima's book, it has been found to be VERY wrong. The idea is interesting and Van Sertima from what ive read is a well respected linguist, he should have focused more on my favorite subject: the "africanization" of caribbean spanish. There is a rich history behind this especially for me being of Dominican heritage.

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