Afro-Mexicans

[alvin]

I have a hard time believing American Indians were Black. Although South America and Egypt did have similar architecture didn't it?

Perhaps you will have a easier time accepting the fact that the first Asians were Black

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/feat.../27/2003212815

[bigshawn]

[SIZE="3

you dont see people who look like sammy sosa, carlos delgado, pedro martinez, big papi ect walking around.

I see them all the time. One of those cats even told my boy where to go to get a good fade

[alvin]

LOL @ Escapade footage!

My paternal great-great grandfather was from Saltillo, Mexico and married a black female slave here in Texas. Here I am a product of that union all these years later.

Coastal populace seems to make the most sense, seeing as how from days of yore that's where we were brought to.

Where does "black" end and "Indian" begin....and vice versa???

Racial mixing was so common in Mexico that it became hard to tell by skin color who was free and who was slave. King Phillip complained that young Black Indians committed crimes and then dressed as Indians so that could "hide out with their mother's relatives and cannot be found."

-BLACK INDIANS by William Loren Katz(1986)

[alvin]

These links are for you ALVIN.. pick up some new reading material.. books.. real books.. these links may give you some CLUES.. this way you can have better POINT OF VIEWS..



http://search.barnesandnoble.com/The...0101935/?itm=2

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Ind...rolina+indians

here ya go...

http://www.deephousepage.com/forums/...0&postcount=78

perhaps you would like to quote some choice passages from this "new reading material" that you so graciously provided for me to check out....

also if I'm not mistaken the authors of these "new" books consult and reference many of the "old" books(ie. yellowed pages) that you so often criticize...LOL

[alvin]

This ideal of keeping slaves distant from their homes and families was crucial to having them under strict control. British merchants took Indians enslaved on the mainland and shipped them to the West Indies. This was the only safe way to enslave Native Americans, for bondage was only secure when its victims felt they had no one to turn to, no friends nearby.

-BLACK INDIANS by William Loren Katz(1986)

[El Mayimbe]

Holy shitfest batman....Im totally ignoring the BULLSHIT Alvin has posted or better yet ask him for the millionth time what college (if any) he went to



anyways...........

calm down, its just a question, on an interesting topic, a logical one, you said found, i'm asking is that the only place? certainly that applies to bahia, but jamaica and guyana, i believe, slaves were forced inland during uprisings and revolts in their battles for freedom

the further central and north you go the lighter the shade gets. but with more and more migration to hte north in mexico its no as noticible as before.

there is no denying african influence in mexico but its not as much as it is in othe latin countries. just by the music alone there is very little african (if any) influence in the Ranchera, Nortena,& Banda the main music in mexico. it has more of a european flavor than african.

bingo.


we all gotta look in the context of forced slave labor and the tough vast terrain South America imposed upon the Spanish/Portuguese colonists. Sugar is the horrid commodity as what cotton was for slaves in the Southern states. African slaves were needed mostly on the coasts and this is noticeable even in Brazil where the coastal areas would generally have the population with many african decendents but when you travel further into the Amazon just as you travel through the andes, its predominately native american. Remember, this was before trains, cars or airplanes so to ship thousands upon thousands of people into the interior of South America w/o them getting sick or dying of forced labor was redundant.

Very interesting info El Mayimbe....Always good to hear knowledge dropped ..I've been trying to immerse myself a bit into Latin culture as I am attempting to learn Spanish..Most of the dialect that I am being exposed to is of a Puerto Rican/Dominican influence..

Keep dropping info as you see fit..I am all ears..

anytime bruv



The african influence is so profound in the Caribbean it becomes Alvin retarded when some Dominicans, Cubans and Puerto Rican deny its rich heritage. The characteristics in the syntax, prononciations, lexicon, double negation in grammar, reduction of the /s/ constanant is what makes Caribbean spanish so unique. Just thinking of the most famous Dominican dishes such as "mofongo" or "monodngo" and how it resonantes with africa alone is so obvious. Ironically, Dominican spanish is also frowned upon by many latinos as being too fast and viewed as "poor spanish" for whatever that means


When I took a latin american spanish class in college we studied alot of the works by prof John Lipski. He's a well respected author and expert on the cross cultural mixture of Spanish & Portuguese with African dialects.









http://www.personal.psu.edu/jml34/newbozal.pdf


"AFRO-DOMINICAN EXAMPLES—POSSIBLY REPRESENTING COGNITIVE LANGUAGE DISORDER (GREEN 1997, 2002)

No yo no a mendé e zapote no. `I don't sell zapotes'
sí, a siguí `yes, [she] went on'
A cogé aquelloh mango. `[I] picked those mangoes'
Hay muchacho sí tabajá sí. `There are young men who work hard'
yo no hacé eso `I didn't do that'

ONSET CLUSTER REDUCTIONS: flojo > fojo `weak,' pobre > pobe `poor,' trabajo > tabajo `work,' gringa > ginga `American,' grande > gande
`big,' flores > fore `flowers,' doble > dobe `double,' libra > liba `pound,' pueblo > puebo `town’

VESTIGIAL SPANISH OF TRINIDAD (LIPSKI 1990):

Tó nojotro trabajaban [trabajábamos] junto
Yo tiene [tengo] cuaranta ocho año
Asina, yo pone [pongo] todo
Yo no sabe [sé] bien
yo mimo [misma] me enfelmó [enfermé]
nosotro ten[emos] otro pehcado que se come bueno
hahta la fecha yo tiene [tengo] conuco
cuando yo viene [vine], tiene [tuve] que trabajá mucho
paltera lo llamo [llamamos] nosotro
lo que ello ehtudian en lo [las] ehcuela
Si pa mí [yo] tocaba un cuatro, yo no volví cantá
me complace de encontralse[me] con uhtedeh
si el gobieno encontraba con tú [te encontraba] con calzón lalgo
La salga eh buena pa uté [su] cabeza
Tú tiene [cuando tú tengas] tiempo, viene aquí
[la] crihtofina cogió [el] puehto del cacao
yo tiene cuatros helmano

EXAMPLES OF SPANISH-PALENQUERO HYBRIDS (MORTON 1999)

Esa agua ta malo
Nosotro no quedamo con ese grupo no
Yo me voy mi camino esta vaina `voy a dejar tranquila esta cosa’
Yo no conocí al abuelo mí
Yo había a tenía [hubiera tenido] experiencia

CHOTA VALLEY, ECUADOR (LIPSKI):

se trabajaban en las haciendas vecino
sobre la materia mismo de cada pueblo
era barato la ropa, barato era
hay gente colombiano
Chota compone con, compone dos sequíos, se llaman un pueblo
Estamos 17 comunidades
últimamente la gente está dicando a la agricultura
se pone lo guagua medios mal de cuerpo, se ponen amarillos
comienza a colorearse las vistas
yo soy [de] abajo
depende [de] las posibilidades del padre
San Lorenzo que queda muy cerca con [de] la Concepción
porque [el] próximo pueblo puede ser Salina
material de aquí de[l] lugar
con yerbas de campo curaban a nosotros
a poca costumbre se le tiene cuando mucha fuerte está la fiebre
casi no más, lo más lo tocan quitarra y bomba
si te acordá la familia Congo"



a piece he wrote about AfroPuertoRican Language in Literature
http://www.jstor.org/pss/3657876



Africanized Spanish
http://www.personal.psu.edu/jml34/afrodate.pdf

[El Mayimbe]

I want to also stress upon the fact that research into the Africanization of Spanish/Portuguese throughout Latin America is somewhat limited yet emerging with interesting findings. The question these scholars are investigating is how Africanization of spanish/portugese is developed and how to distinguish the time of migration from northern africa with the arabs mixing with the western african languages.


Remember, most of the trading with Spain occured down in the southern coast which was controlled by the (brace yourself) Moors for 700 years. The ships would head over to the Canary Islands to load up on supplies and slaves then head for the long journey across the atlantic. (Ask any Dominican or Cuban what they call a bus...."guagua". its origin is from the canary islands)

The Spanish court was based in Madrid and northern spain so when an offical was sent to Peru or any deep region of South America that offical was to 1st take almost a year to reach the location and then spend most of his life there. As opposed to the african spanish as spoken on the coasts the spanish these officials utilized has a distinctive characteristics of northern span which then was pased unto the natives in the region.
The usage of /vos/ in the south american dialect is pronounced mainly in these regions and not in many other areas.

[mhd]

I want to also stress upon the fact that research into the Africanization of Spanish/Portuguese throughout Latin America is somewhat limited yet emerging with interesting findings. The question these scholars are investigating is how Africanization of spanish/portugese is developed and how to distinguish the time of migration from northern africa with the arabs mixing with the western african languages.


Remember, most of the trading with Spain occured down in the southern coast which was controlled by the (brace yourself) Moors for 700 years. The ships would head over to the Canary Islands to load up on supplies and slaves then head for the long journey across the atlantic. (Ask any Dominican or Cuban what they call a bus...."guagua". its origin is from the canary islands)

The Spanish court was based in Madrid and northern spain so when an offical was sent to Peru or any deep region of South America that offical was to 1st take almost a year to reach the location and then spend most of his life there. As opposed to the african spanish as spoken on the coasts the spanish these officials utilized has a distinctive characteristics of northern span which then was pased unto the natives in the region.
The usage of /vos/ in the south american dialect is pronounced mainly in these regions and not in many other areas.

great comments, talk about the vast differences in dialect in the country of spain itself

[likewater]

here ya go...

http://www.deephousepage.com/forums/...0&postcount=78

perhaps you would like to quote some choice passages from this "new reading material" that you so graciously provided for me to check out....

also if I'm not mistaken the authors of these "new" books consult and reference many of the "old" books(ie. yellowed pages) that you so often criticize...LOL

No Babe.. Your an IDIOT!! that thinks he has the right shit out there for the world to read up on.. Your shit is non readable.. words can't be seen.. and you are an IDIOT.. really.. YOU ACTUALLY think I will take what you put up here as truth.. shit so old you can't see what the hell youR reading.. and no YOur shit is not what I want to read.. sooo like I said.. YOURANIDIOT.. PEACE!

[kaaos]

I see them all the time. One of those cats even told my boy where to go to get a good fade

What part of Mexico are you in?

[Rufus P. Funk]

Where does "black" end and "Indian" begin....and vice versa???

I was gonna get Native American or Mexican regardless. My great-great grandfather on my maternal side was Cherokee.

The only gifts I've gotten are the ability to go bald, grow a beard in patches, and deal with the sun easier than most out of that, LOL.

I like my mixed bag. I get the Texas best all in one nice, concise package.

[alvin]

No Babe.. Your an IDIOT!! that thinks he has the right shit out there for the world to read up on.. Your shit is non readable.. words can't be seen.. and you and an IDIOT.. really.. YOU ACTUALLY think I will take what you put up here as truth.. shit so old you can't see what the hell youR reading.. and no YOur shit is not what I want to read.. sooo like I said.. YOURANIDIOT.. PEACE!

[LEONARD REMIX RROY]

Where does "black" end and "Indian" begin....and vice versa???

-BLACK INDIANS by William Loren Katz(1986)

Black ends at straight hair weaves - Indian begins weaveless straight hair.

That makes damn more sense than the NEVER READ BY YOU book links you post.

Do us a favor, post a quote from a book you read OR copy a page and highlight it, scan & save it as a jpeg then post it.

El Mayimbe had some good convo happining and you fucked up the whole thread for him and others.

i'm just pointing out a facts, moor or less.

[kaaos]

Black ends at straight hair weaves - Indian begins weaveless straight hair.

That makes damn more sense than the NEVER READ BY YOU book links you post.

Do us a favor, post a quote from a book you read OR copy a page and highlight it, scan & save it as a jpeg then post it.

El Mayimbe had some good convo happining and you fucked up the whole thread for him and others.

i'm just pointing out a facts, moor or less.

this had the beginnings of an interesting topic but it got ""Alvinized"

[alvin]

The word Carib is frequently applied by the Spanish population to any wild tribe, merely in the sense of savage or wild. Thus on the upper Usumacinta the Lacandones, a people of pure Maya stock, are so called by the whites ; on the Musquito coast the uncivilized Ulvas of the mountains are referred to as Caribs. There are a large number of pure and mixed Caribs, probably five or six thousand, in British Honduras near Trujillo, but they do not belong to the original population. They were brought there from the island of St. Vincent in 1796 by the British authorities. Many of them have the marked traits of the negro through a mingling of the races, and are sometimes called " Black Caribs." The Rev. Alexander Henderson, who has composed a grammar and dictionary of their dialect, gives them the name Karifs, a corruption of Carib, and is the term by which they call themselves.

-The American Race: A Linguistic Classification and Ethnographic Description of the Native Tribes ... (1901)by Daniel Garrison Brinton
http://www.archive.org/details/ameri...eali00bringoog

This ideal of keeping slaves distant from their homes and families was crucial to having them under strict control. British merchants took Indians enslaved on the mainland and shipped them to the West Indies. This was the only safe way to enslave Native Americans, for bondage was only secure when its victims felt they had no one to turn to, no friends nearby.

-BLACK INDIANS by William Loren Katz(1986)

[El Mayimbe]

and in peru, it's concolon (accent on the last "o"). not only is linguistics a key to the ethnic/phenotypical/cultural make up of a region, but FOOD can give a lot of insight into the historical development of a country/region/people.

for instance, in peru, the cuisine is a mixture of african, japanese, chinese, and indigenous, and is considered it's "own" cuisine, complete with techniques, flavors, and dishes, just like french, italian, japanese, etc. (as compared to the generic "latin" offered in the US which is the chicken stew/rice & beans/plantains that is actually more related to a Caribbean Latin American aka PR/DR style of eating).

If we're talking linguistics, it's also interesting to see how words that enter the lexicon can be regional dialectical interpretations of another word, e.g. pegao is the typical island pronunciation dropping the "d" sound because the word is actually "pegado." (past tense, stuck)

gonna have to check out those links posted early in the thread, was just getting my chime on about what frankie said...

good points Lo


The Lipski book i mentioned on my earlier post goes into full detail about the lowland vs highland andean spanish spoken in peru. I can lend it out anytime youd like

great comments, talk about the vast differences in dialect in the country of spain itself

yup


its funny how ive always been scolded by other latinos who want to exude their "superiority" in the form of spanish they speak as if it were the "pure" castilian form but when you speak to a spaniard from the south they'll tell you that those morons up north speak a crappy dialect themselves ....and you sure as hell dont want to know what the Basque or Catalan region think of the rest of their countrymen

[LEONARD REMIX RROY]

good points Lo


The Lipski book i mentioned on my earlier post goes into full detail about the lowland vs highland andean spanish spoken in peru. I can lend it out anytime youd like














yup


its funny how ive always been scolded by other latinos who want to exude their "superiority" in the form of spanish they speak as if it were the "pure" castilian form but when you speak to a spaniard from the south they'll tell you that those morons up north speak a crappy dialect themselves ....and you sure as hell dont want to know what the Basque or Catalan region think of the rest of their countrymen

Kinda like a inner-race racism thing huh.

The things that I never knew OR were told by people i've met along the years that were from PR, DR, Cuba etc, interesting.

[El Mayimbe]

Kinda like a inner-race racism thing huh.

The things that I never knew OR were told by people i've met along the years that were from PR, DR, Cuba etc, interesting.

yup. But, you cant blame alot of them though, theyve been conditioned all their lives to believe that they have no traces of african blood within them. Its funny seeing how some black dominicans would classify themselves as "dark inidan" when the native population on the whole island was wiped out within 50 years of Christopher Colombus landing there.

[Kemmot]

I once read somewhere that theres plenty Blacks in Argentina, but they're treated like shit nowadays...discriminated against, but seen as good fuck-mates.
Apparently during one of the world wars, Italian troops stationed there had a penchant for the Black women, out of all the other European troops stationed there..I guess they are pretty much hidden from the rest of the world.

[mhd]

I once read somewhere that theres plenty Blacks in Argentina, but they're treated like shit nowadays...discriminated against, but seen as good fuck-mates.
Apparently during one of the world wars, Italian troops stationed there had a penchant for the Black women, out of all the other European troops stationed there..I guess they are pretty much hidden from the rest of the world.

Afro Argentine
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Afro Argentine
Africano Argentino

Notable Afro Argentines:
Ramón Carrillo • Gabino Ezeiza • Higinio D. Cazón
Santiago Lovell • Fidel Nadal • Arturo Rodríguez
Total population
"Black": c. 52,000
"African ancestry": c. 2 million
(Roughly 0.1% of total Argentina's population)[1]
[2]
Regions with significant populations
Buenos Aires
Languages
Spanish language

Religion
Predominantly Roman Catholicism

Related ethnic groups
Afro-Latin American, Cape Verdean Argentines, Afro Brazilian, Afro-Uruguayan

The black population resulting from the slave trade during the centuries of Spanish domination of the Viceroyalty of the Río de la Plata had a major role in Argentine history. Throughout the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, it comprised up to fifty per cent of the population in some provinces and had a deep impact on national culture.

In the nineteenth century, it declined sharply in number as a result of the wars of Independence (most of the soldiers were black Argentine men), high infant mortality rates,low number of married blacks,the War of the Triple Alliance (most Argentine soldiers in this battle were black as well), cholera epidemics in 1861 and 1864, as well as a yellow fever epidemic in 1871.

By the late 1800s, the Afro-Argentine population was consisted mainly of women,and mixed with the European immigrants that arrived. With thousands of immigrants of Europe arriving to Argentine soil, and most black women intermarrying with them, noting that their populations were already low, the Afro-Argentine population faded into oblivion.

In 2006 there was a pilot census on this issue in the neighborhoods of Montserrat, in Buenos Aires, and in Santa Rosa de Lima, in Santa Fe, revealing that 5% of the Argentine population admits having ancestors of African descent and that an additional 20% believes it could share this ancestry but is not sure.

This research supports the claim by the Center for Genetic Studies of the School of Arts and Sciences of the Universidad de Buenos Aires (UBA) that an estimated 4.3% of the people living in suburban Buenos Aires have genetic markers of African descent.[3][4] Today there is still a notable Afro-Argentine community in the Buenos Aires district of San Telmo.

[mhd]

good points Lo


The Lipski book i mentioned on my earlier post goes into full detail about the lowland vs highland andean spanish spoken in peru. I can lend it out anytime youd like














yup


its funny how ive always been scolded by other latinos who want to exude their "superiority" in the form of spanish they speak as if it were the "pure" castilian form but when you speak to a spaniard from the south they'll tell you that those morons up north speak a crappy dialect themselves ....and you sure as hell dont want to know what the Basque or Catalan region think of the rest of their countrymen

don't both folks in Basque and Catalan consider themselves separate and apart from Spain itself? on the subject of purity, isn't it ironic that Spainiards brought African blood in their dna to the americas due to the Moor's conquest, so, regardless of whether a central american or south america has african slave ancestry they certainly have african ancestry regardless

[El Mayimbe]

I once read somewhere that theres plenty Blacks in Argentina, but they're treated like shit nowadays...discriminated against, but seen as good fuck-mates.
Apparently during one of the world wars, Italian troops stationed there had a penchant for the Black women, out of all the other European troops stationed there..I guess they are pretty much hidden from the rest of the world.

Even before even the italians came over to Argentina it was the afro-argentines that developed what eventually became the countries most notable export:


TANGO

"All sources stress the influence of the African communities and their rhythms, while the instruments and techniques brought in by European immigrants in the second half of the 20th century played a major role in its final definition, relating it to the Salon music styles to which Tango would contribute back at a later stage."




& in regards to Italians having a thing for African women....theyre notoriously known for that till this day. Every brothel owner knows to pimp their most dark skinned women to the Italian clients visiting Cuba or D.R.

don't both folks in Basque and Catalan consider themselves separate and apart from Spain itself? on the subject of purity, isn't it ironic that Spainiards brought African blood in their dna to the americas due to the Moor's conquest, so, regardless of whether a central american or south america has african slave ancestry they certainly have african ancestry regardless

yup! they do consider themselves seperate from the rest of Spain and what they point out is that their regions remained unconquered by the Moors hence they carry the "true, undiluted spanish blood".

down south; theyre very proud of their North African heritage. For over 700 years the Moors were in charge of most of the Iberian peninsula







Ironically, the moors were expelled in 1492 and that in turn gave the green light for Colombus to set his voyage to the "new world". This also explains why the Spanish soldiers, conquistadors and mercernaries who travelled to the Americas were such violent men was due to the fact that Spain was at war for 7 centuries so as soon as a new non christian target presented itself they murdered native americans with no problem. Its easy to kill someone if you dont consider them human in the 1st place.

[mhd]

Even before even the italians came over to Argentina it was the afro-argentines that developed what eventually became the countries most notable export:


TANGO

"All sources stress the influence of the African communities and their rhythms, while the instruments and techniques brought in by European immigrants in the second half of the 20th century played a major role in its final definition, relating it to the Salon music styles to which Tango would contribute back at a later stage."




& in regards to Italians having a thing for African women....theyre notoriously known for that till this day. Every brothel owner knows to pimp their most dark skinned women to the Italian clients visiting Cuba or D.R.










yup! they do consider themselves seperate from the rest of Spain and what they point out is that their regions remained unconquered by the Moors hence they carry the "true, undiluted spanish blood".

down south; theyre very proud of their North African heritage. For over 700 years the Moors were in charge of most of the Iberian peninsula







Ironically, the moors were expelled in 1492 and that in turn gave the green light for Colombus to set his voyage to the "new world". This also explains why the Spanish soldiers, conquistadors and mercernaries who travelled to the Americas were such violent men was due to the fact that Spain was at war for 7 centuries so as soon as a new non christian target presented itself they murdered native americans with no problem. Its easy to kill someone if you dont consider them human in the 1st place.

wow, very interesting point about northern and southern attitudes about north african heritage, i noticed that there was a matter of fact quality regarding southern spain and north african, and indeed pride in the architecture and artistic quality left behind, but i thought it was limited to only that, thanks for clarifying that, which brings to mind the dichotomy between the racial resentment in central america and the racial pride in southern spain.
great point as well about the conquistadors coming off centuries of warfare and ready to continue the bloodlust

[alvin]

If we assume, only on the strength of the work of artists, that in the region of Panama or thereabouts Negro elements were present as late as the post-Classic period, our view is well confirmed by an unequivocal document contained in the Decades of Pedro Martir d'Angliera written in the early sixteenth century. That the writings of Pedro Martir are practically unknown in English-speaking countries is probably due to the fact that there are no modern critical English translations of this primary historical source.

In his third Decade, Chapter II, dealing with the exploration of Vasco Nunez de Balboa of the Isthmus of Panama and under the heading "Ethiopian tribes," he writes:

There they met Negro slaves from a region only two days in distance from Caruaca, where nothing else but Negroes are bred, who are ferocious and extraordinary cruel. They (the explorers) believe that in former times Negroes, who were out for robbery navigated from Ethiopia and, being shipwrecked, established themselves in those mountains. The inhabitants of Caruaca have internal fights full of hatred with these Negroes. They enslave each other mutually or just kill each other.

Similar testimony is given by the Dominican Fray Gregorio Garcia (1554-1637), who in the latter part of the sixteenth century spent nine years in Peru and three in Mexico. In his book Origen de los Indios en el Nuevo Mundo (Madrid, 1607 and 1729), which is practically unknown and hardly ever cited by historians, he mentions that the Spaniards saw Negroes for the first time on an island off the shore of Cartagena Columbia. "Here were the slaves of the chief, Negroes, which were the first ones our people saw in the Indies."

-UNEXPECTED FACES IN ANCIENT AMERICA: 1500 B.C.-A.D.1500 by Alexander von Wuthenau (1975)

[alvin]

How the world was peopled; ethnological lectures (1884) by Edward Fontaine
http://www.archive.org/details/howwo...eopl00fontuoft