"The History of White People": What it means to be white

[AD]

i like white people. they give me a paycheck when i behave.

[Bill Blake]

There is nothing cardinal about the land masses we call continents. There is nothing cardinal about the force that makes a compass point in one direction. There is nothing cardinal about the direction that is 180 degrees of the direction my compass points to.

These are not social constructs.


No.

The African continent is not a social construct. The fact that it has an Eastern end and a Western end also isn't a social construct.

Those are simple facts of geography.

The fact that we refer to the Eastern side of the African continent as "East Africa" does not diminish the simple facts.

Nay, WOW, this is really bad. Don’t pay attention to him. We are doing just fine. I’m not trying to make you look stupid. I’m not trying to make you admit that you are wrong. Trust me on this.

Go back to my last post, and let’s proceed: what holds the compass?

[Nay Sayer]

You never made a position that they were scientific concepts? But you make the position that they are not social concepts? That isn’t making much sense. What are they then?

Perhaps they just exist and need no definition.

Now, what holds a compass that makes sense of what a north is? What? A dog? A frog? A cow that jumped over a moon? The EARTH? What holds it?

I would assert it is not that which holds the compass that makes sense of what North is. Maybe the force itself that acts on the compass is what makes sense of what North is.

[AD]

Encyclopedias Youranus

Providers of knowledge to shit talkers since year 1

i'm slapping this shit on a shirt!! you heard it here first, so step!!

[Bill Blake]

Perhaps they just exist and need no definition.



I would assert it is not that which holds the compass that makes sense of what North is. Maybe the force itself that acts on the compass is what makes sense of what North is.

Very good, the second answer, not the first (very bad), so:

If the compass is the source for your “scientific” argument, the compass pointing “north,” are you not arguing that the north, or North Pole is the center by which we determine, “scientifically,” what north, south, east or west is?

[Nay Sayer]

Okay, good. Thank you, this is good. I mean the second answer with regard to the compass. The first one we can let pass (not good).

Now, does the compass point to “north?” In other words is the magnetic field of which the compass is reacting to mean “north?” What does it tell you you are south of? The “top” of the world? The “North Pole?”

The fact of the matter is the needle of a compass will always point to the magnetic pole which has the opposite charge - commonly referred to as North.

[bomb cola]

The fact of the matter is the needle of a compass will always point to the magnetic pole which has the opposite charge - commonly referred to as North.

Article 1 section 8 clause 1 gives Congress the power to levy taxes.

[El Mayimbe]

dont mean to interrupt this "mensa level" convo but the interview 2 nights ago of the author was quite funny and interesting

The Colbert Report	Mon - Thurs 11:30pm / 10:30c
Nell Irvin Painter
www.colbertnation.com
Colbert Report Full Episodes Political Humor Health Care reform

[Monny JcIntosh]

Bill, you're talking nonsense.

It's a convention - which I take it is all the charge of social construction amounts to - that we call a certain distance "ten feet", but the fact that a certain distance is ten feet is not a convention.

Similarly, it is a convention that we call a certain direction on the surface of the earth "north", but the fact that a certain direction on the surface of the earth is north is not a convention. (Of course, the matter is irrelevantly complicated by the fact that the word "north" is ambiguous; which direction it denotes depends on which point on the surface of the earth is being privileged - the magnetic north pole or the rotational north pole.)

It is also a convention that we call a certain land mass "Africa", but there is nothing conventional about the fact that a certain land mass is Africa. (An irrelevant complication here is the fact that the boundaries of Africa - and so east Africa - are vague.)

[ngeso]

I believe white Supremacy is the dominant power construct in the world today, it has been for hundreds of years. The people with power are white. They control 90% of the world's resources while comprising less than 10 percent of the population. They determine who is and who isnt "white". With that power they have created a system that perpetuates their domination in all areas of people activity.

Ngeso are you white?

Oh........I suppose that is a matter of perspective. Depending on the levels of empathy or disdain many people will consider me any one of black or white, too black or white, or not black or white enough, whichever suits their politics best. Because of that (and because of necessity and authenticity) I battle on middle ground. Thus you will mostly get a lot of grey arguments out of me, seldom straight black or white ones.


Getting back to what you said there, on the surface what you propose may appear to be true depending on perspective and political interest. Personally, though, I would venture to say that power structures are a lot more complex and intricate than your IMO simple power/race dichotomy. For example, if you come to my country, you can observe that so-called white privilege is something that is awarded and revoked by a majority black power structure.

In my country the most powerful people are black. This may not mean much on a global scale (where these same people are comparably powerless), but in the smaller scheme of things if you are white and they take away your farm or put you in remand prison for three years without trial just to prove a point, then your white skin is a liability. The point I'm making is that power is relative rather than absolute.

...

[ngeso]

Regarding all this East African/cradle-of-mankind stuff:

The factual aspect aside, of what social conceptual merit is it to constantly point out that we all came from East Africa?

...

[DeesKo]

they control 90% of the world's resources while comprising less than 10 percent of the population.

source!!!!?????!!!!??????!????!

[AMc]

source!!!!?????!!!!??????!????!

[Bill Blake]

Bill, you're talking nonsense.

It's a convention - which I take it is all the charge of social construction amounts to - that we call a certain distance "ten feet", but the fact that a certain distance is ten feet is not a convention.

Ha ha, nonesnese? How unconventional. Is “race” a convention? The scientist and the historian are calling it a “concept.” And a social, as opposed to scientific one at that. “Convention” is fine with me. But what distinguishes a scientific convention from a social one? Especially seeing as this nonsense of "all the charge of social construction" is what I'm getting at.

(Of course, the matter is irrelevantly complicated by the fact that the word "north" is ambiguous; which direction it denotes depends on which point on the surface of the earth is being privileged - the magnetic north pole or the rotational north pole.)

Okay, so thus far, we’ve got two “points” we “privilege” as a “center.” Are there anymore?

It is also a convention that we call a certain land mass "Africa", but there is nothing conventional about the fact that a certain land mass is Africa. (An irrelevant complication here is the fact that the boundaries of Africa - and so east Africa - are vague.)

Yes, but who is the "we?" The scientists? The socialist? A snowman?

Is Africa a "scientific" convention?

[Bill Blake]

The fact of the matter is the needle of a compass will always point to the magnetic pole which has the opposite charge - commonly referred to as North.

So I’m a bit confused here. East Africa as a place was scientifically designated so because of a compass? The same goes for Georgia’s boarder with Florida: is that designation due to the use of a compass?

[Bill Blake]

Burt Reynolds is in California. For Burt to point to Nevada which way does he point?
A Latter Day Saint is in Utah. For the Saint to point to Nevada which way does he point?

[Bill Blake]

Regarding all this East African/cradle-of-mankind stuff:

The factual aspect aside, of what social conceptual merit is it to constantly point out that we all came from East Africa?

...

A very scientific one.

[Bill Blake]

Bill, you're talking nonsense.

It's a convention - which I take it is all the charge of social construction amounts to - that we call a certain distance "ten feet", but the fact that a certain distance is ten feet is not a convention.

Similarly, it is a convention that we call a certain direction on the surface of the earth "north", but the fact that a certain direction on the surface of the earth is north is not a convention. (Of course, the matter is irrelevantly complicated by the fact that the word "north" is ambiguous; which direction it denotes depends on which point on the surface of the earth is being privileged - the magnetic north pole or the rotational north pole.)

It is also a convention that we call a certain land mass "Africa", but there is nothing conventional about the fact that a certain land mass is Africa. (An irrelevant complication here is the fact that the boundaries of Africa - and so east Africa - are vague.)

Aw, Jonny, let's just cut to the chase. Forgive me for the crude old ass logic:

All conventions are social.
Therefore, all scientific conventions are social.
There may be non-scientific conventions (which we haven’t worked out) but there is no such thing as a non-social convention.

Now, and since we want to really get down to scientific concepts, consider the above logic with this statement; this “scientific(?)” statement:

“J. Craig Venter claimed, proves that race is a "social concept [convention?], not a scientific one."”

[Monny JcIntosh]

I take it that saying that race is a social concept, not a scientific one, is just to say that the concept "race" as it figures in our every day thinking doesn't figure in any fruitful scientific theory. I don't know whether that's true. I suspect it is - however broadly you want to construe "scientific theory".

[Monny JcIntosh]

Ha ha, nonesnese? How unconventional. Is “race” a convention? The scientist and the historian are calling it a “concept.” And a social, as opposed to scientific one at that. “Convention” is fine with me. But what distinguishes a scientific convention from a social one? Especially seeing as this nonsense of "all the charge of social construction" is what I'm getting at.

I didn't distinguish scientific and social conventions. (I don't know what such a distinction might be.) I identified social constructions with conventions.

Okay, so thus far, we’ve got two “points” we “privilege” as a “center.” Are there anymore?

Not as far as I know. As I said, the ambiguity of "north" is irrelevant to the discussion.

Yes, but who is the "we?" The scientists? The socialist? A snowman?

Is Africa a "scientific" convention?

No, it's a continent.

[ngeso]

A very scientific one.

Would you care to expand that a bit? In many black/white race discussions human origin is thrown into the ring. What does that qualify, though? How does referencing the East African origin (which always has a bit of a doctrinaire appeal to me) affect racism?

...

[Nay Sayer]

Regarding all this East African/cradle-of-mankind stuff:

The factual aspect aside, of what social conceptual merit is it to constantly point out that we all came from East Africa?

...

Off the top of my head, I would say the benefit is having a better understanding of world history against the backdrop of the last 3-400 years of racism, in all of it's many forms, that has been perpetuated by Western "Civilization."

[Nay Sayer]

So I’m a bit confused here. East Africa as a place was scientifically designated so because of a compass?

No.

The same goes for Georgia’s boarder with Florida: is that designation due to the use of a compass?

Georgia's boarder with Florida has nothing to do with the use of a compass and everything to do with politics.

[Nay Sayer]

All conventions are social.

Would you care to support this assertion with the relevant evidence?

Or are we just to take your word for it?

[djmarbll]

Ok this guy Robert Jensen helped me to calm down,you know calming down totaly out of character.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=5539692

Robert Jensen sounds similar to Tim Wise, who's been villified as a "brand" on here before. But it doesn't negate what Wise, Jensen, or Joy Degruy have to say.