Thread: "The History of White People": What it means to be white

  1. #1201
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhodey View Post
    Brazenmuse, gotcha you think racism white supremacy is complicated..... HUH? Missing text?


    Brazenmuse,

    Do you think the nonwhites should be suspicious of Tim Wise based on him being an admitted racist white supremacist ? Yes or No?
    Issues involving zillions of people across centuries of human history are complicated. I've been saying that all along, dear. "Getting" me to think (I believe that the fragment above was going in that direction) isn't anything you can take credit for. Reducing the complexity of socioeconomic issues to "race" and casting one party as "the root of all evil" is a serious enough problem - one to which you and your lovely source texts are merrily contributing just as much as the racist right-wing nutjobs are.

    Admittedly, complexity is frightening and can be disheartening. The fact of modernity is that it is radically complex, shot through with contingencies of every sort. There are those who don't respond well to the contingent nature of late modernity and long for some sort of simple silver bullet, simple solution...these people often become "fundamentalists" of some sort as a reaction to a world that no longer makes sense. The most obvious cases of this are in societies that got dragged into modernity by globalization in the past century or so. Those societies often have a deeply reactionary group/groups in them that are frantically trying to stop the world because they don't like it and don't understand it.

    No. I don't think people should be suspicious of Tim Wise's motives. And I have used his work many times to get folks thinking about skin privilege. In addition to that, I've seen the difference that suddenly problematizing the invisible can make in how people think and behave. I firmly believe that people need to do the research, do the reading, do the listening and take the complexity into account rather than reducing things to unproductive, stultifying binaries. I'd rather trust Wise, who understands what he is talking about and has done the hard work of introspection and critique than trust someone blindly spouting some sort of racist dogma (a charge that I do, indeed, level against you with the evidence of this thread), be they any color whatsoever.
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    Beyond the Pale
    Is white the new black?
    by Kelefa Sanneh

    Glenn Beck excels at expressing adventurous thoughts in memorable language, but he outdid himself when, one morning last summer, he offered a diagnosis of President Obama. He said, “This President, I think, has exposed himself as a guy, over and over and over again, who has a deep-seated hatred for white people, or the white culture. I don’t know what it is.” (The context was one of the summer’s most entertaining reality shows—the one starring the black Harvard professor and the white police officer who arrested him.) In September, Beck sat for an interview with Katie Couric, and she asked him a deceptively simple question, which had been posed by a Twitter user named adrianinflorida: “what did u mean white culture?” Whatever adventurous thoughts this query inspired, Beck did not seem eager to share them. “Um, I, I don’t know,” he said. Finally, after two minutes of temporizing, he arrived at a nonresponsive response that was both honest and sensible: “What is the white culture? I don’t know how to answer that that’s not a trap, you know what I mean?”

    Often, the most appropriate answer to that question is a joke, or a series of jokes. In 2008, a canny young white Canadian named Christian Lander started a blog called “Stuff White People Like,” which soon became a best-selling book bearing the same title; it listed a hundred and fifty of white people’s favorite things, from recycling to the Red Sox. (This magazine made the list, too, at No. 114.) Lander’s tone is faux-anthropological but wide-eyed: “Bike shops are almost entirely staffed and patronized by white people!”; “After learning that a white person is pregnant, it is a good idea to provide a list of recipes for placenta.” His “white people” are wealthy, urban, youngish, and thoroughly blue—they “hate” Republicans, and although Obama hadn’t yet won the Democratic nomination, he placed eighth on the list. (Coffee was No. 1.)

    Which means that Lander isn’t really talking about white people, or, at any rate, not most of them. In fact, he sometimes defines “white people” in opposition to “the wrong kind of white people,” because his true target is a small subset of white people, a white cultural élite. Most white people don’t “hate” Republicans—they have voted Republican in every Presidential election since 1968. A few months ago, a different and more demographically precise portrait of white culture arrived, bearing a fulsome blurb (“Revelatory!”) from Lander himself. The author is a black journalist named Rich Benjamin, and his book, “Searching for Whitopia” (Hyperion; $24.99), chronicles the years he spent in overwhelmingly white enclaves across America, from Coeur d’Alene, Idaho, to Forsyth County, Georgia. The people he meets tend to be politically conservative, and although they talk readily about the urban blight they left behind, they talk much less readily about race. Many in Idaho seem to agree with Helen Chenoweth-Hage, the late congresswoman, who responded to a question about the region’s lack of diversity by means of an ingenious euphemism. “The warm-climate community just hasn’t found the colder climate that attractive,” she said. Benjamin hears many disavowals of racism, and he has to drive an hour north of Coeur d’Alene, to a tiny Christian Identity church, in a town called Sandpoint, just to find someone willing to say, “I’m glad I’m white.” Even that statement, delivered from the pulpit, is swiftly followed by a disclaimer: “The Indian, the Mexican, and the black can be proud of what they are, too.”

    Benjamin did most of his research toward the end of the Bush era, and perhaps he now wishes he had waited a few years. Obama’s election was a transformative moment for blacks in America, but it has also proved to be a transformative moment for whites. As a whole, white people voted for Senator McCain, and, with the growth of the anti-Obama backlash, especially in the form of Tea Party protests, the whiteness of the Obama opposition has become a political issue. Keith Olbermann, of MSNBC, called the Tea Party movement “a white people’s party,” and asked, in reference to the various marches and rallies, “Where are the black faces?” (The most adroit response came in the form of a YouTube video highlighting the all-white lineup pictured on the MSNBC Web site.) When Jon Stewart introduced a “Daily Show” segment on the Conservative Political Action Conference, he got a laugh from his studio audience by calling it a “festival of whites.” (Stewart’s show ranked thirty-fifth on Lander’s list.)

    Read more: http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/books/201...
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrazenMuse View Post
    No. I don't think people should be suspicious of Tim Wise's motives.
    Thankyou.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhodey View Post
    Thank you.
    yw...
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    Quote Originally Posted by dj-chefron View Post
    Beyond the Pale
    Is white the new black?
    by Kelefa Sanneh

    Glenn Beck excels at expressing adventurous thoughts in memorable language, but he outdid himself when, one morning last summer, he offered a diagnosis of President Obama. He said, “This President, I think, has exposed himself as a guy, over and over and over again, who has a deep-seated hatred for white people, or the white culture. I don’t know what it is.” (The context was one of the summer’s most entertaining reality shows—the one starring the black Harvard professor and the white police officer who arrested him.) In September, Beck sat for an interview with Katie Couric, and she asked him a deceptively simple question, which had been posed by a Twitter user named adrianinflorida: “what did u mean white culture?” Whatever adventurous thoughts this query inspired, Beck did not seem eager to share them. “Um, I, I don’t know,” he said. Finally, after two minutes of temporizing, he arrived at a nonresponsive response that was both honest and sensible: “What is the white culture? I don’t know how to answer that that’s not a trap, you know what I mean?”

    Often, the most appropriate answer to that question is a joke, or a series of jokes. In 2008, a canny young white Canadian named Christian Lander started a blog called “Stuff White People Like,” which soon became a best-selling book bearing the same title; it listed a hundred and fifty of white people’s favorite things, from recycling to the Red Sox. (This magazine made the list, too, at No. 114.) Lander’s tone is faux-anthropological but wide-eyed: “Bike shops are almost entirely staffed and patronized by white people!”; “After learning that a white person is pregnant, it is a good idea to provide a list of recipes for placenta.” His “white people” are wealthy, urban, youngish, and thoroughly blue—they “hate” Republicans, and although Obama hadn’t yet won the Democratic nomination, he placed eighth on the list. (Coffee was No. 1.)

    Which means that Lander isn’t really talking about white people, or, at any rate, not most of them. In fact, he sometimes defines “white people” in opposition to “the wrong kind of white people,” because his true target is a small subset of white people, a white cultural élite. Most white people don’t “hate” Republicans—they have voted Republican in every Presidential election since 1968. A few months ago, a different and more demographically precise portrait of white culture arrived, bearing a fulsome blurb (“Revelatory!”) from Lander himself. The author is a black journalist named Rich Benjamin, and his book, “Searching for Whitopia” (Hyperion; $24.99), chronicles the years he spent in overwhelmingly white enclaves across America, from Coeur d’Alene, Idaho, to Forsyth County, Georgia. The people he meets tend to be politically conservative, and although they talk readily about the urban blight they left behind, they talk much less readily about race. Many in Idaho seem to agree with Helen Chenoweth-Hage, the late congresswoman, who responded to a question about the region’s lack of diversity by means of an ingenious euphemism. “The warm-climate community just hasn’t found the colder climate that attractive,” she said. Benjamin hears many disavowals of racism, and he has to drive an hour north of Coeur d’Alene, to a tiny Christian Identity church, in a town called Sandpoint, just to find someone willing to say, “I’m glad I’m white.” Even that statement, delivered from the pulpit, is swiftly followed by a disclaimer: “The Indian, the Mexican, and the black can be proud of what they are, too.”

    Benjamin did most of his research toward the end of the Bush era, and perhaps he now wishes he had waited a few years. Obama’s election was a transformative moment for blacks in America, but it has also proved to be a transformative moment for whites. As a whole, white people voted for Senator McCain, and, with the growth of the anti-Obama backlash, especially in the form of Tea Party protests, the whiteness of the Obama opposition has become a political issue. Keith Olbermann, of MSNBC, called the Tea Party movement “a white people’s party,” and asked, in reference to the various marches and rallies, “Where are the black faces?” (The most adroit response came in the form of a YouTube video highlighting the all-white lineup pictured on the MSNBC Web site.) When Jon Stewart introduced a “Daily Show” segment on the Conservative Political Action Conference, he got a laugh from his studio audience by calling it a “festival of whites.” (Stewart’s show ranked thirty-fifth on Lander’s list.)

    Read more: http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/books/201...
    Interesting...Obama hates "white" culture, therefore he was compelled to excel within its bastions of elitism?
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrazenMuse View Post
    Interesting...Obama hates "white" culture, therefore he was compelled to excel within its bastions of elitism?
    No, because "America" gave him everything, and still he and his wife are terrorist-fist-bumping ingrates who find fault with certain aspects of American society, both contemporary and historical.

    Obama is "the uppity negro" writ extra-large.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmymack-2000 View Post
    No, because "America" gave him everything, and still he and his wife are terrorist-fist-bumping ingrates who find fault with certain aspects of American society, both contemporary and historical.

    Obama is "the uppity negro" writ extra-large.
    you got that right...
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhodey View Post
    Could Sadam Hussein apply his own rules and continue ruling? Could Aristide? I can keep going if you want.




    WHo is "their"?




    Google is your friend.







    translation, 1+1 equals 2 except in base 2 and when people are procreating.

    No thanks,I'll just stick with the logic.





    Interesting.






    Nope that was a poor analogy. It's like what I said it was like , locking your door at night for precautionary reasons.
    You see, that's where you're the racist.
    There's no way you can learn from the others.
    You draw conclusions.
    You're just half human.
    Square.
    Not a humanist.
    One-sided.

    This is confusion to me. You're not ready yet to endorse the complexity of this evolving world.

    Idance
    Last edited by the crackhouse; 04-19-2010 at 03:27 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhodey View Post

    "With great power comes great responsibility..."

    You're quoting Spiderman now? He's white, FYI.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmymack-2000 View Post
    No, because "America" gave him everything, and still he and his wife are terrorist-fist-bumping ingrates who find fault with certain aspects of American society, both contemporary and historical.

    Obama is "the uppity negro" writ extra-large.

    And he isn't even that very much, considering his familial background.

    ...

  11. #1211
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    Quote Originally Posted by the crackhouse View Post
    You see, that's where you're the racist.
    There's no way you can learn from the others.
    Oh I have learned quite a bit here.

    You draw conclusions.
    Which is logical in problem solving.Otherwise 1+1 =?


    You're just half human.
    Define "human" please.


    Not a humanist.
    What is a "humanist"?




    This is confusion to me. You're not ready yet to endorse the complexity of this evolving world.

    Idance
    I suspect the racist white supremacist want nonwhtes to embrace confusion because it keeps them from focusing on racism white supremacy.

    Now I have said , that I could be incorrect. However nothing presented here
    has led me to believe so.

    Actually no one here besides 206 Refugee actually affirmed any belief that we live in a world dominated by racism white supremacy. The strongest statement I believe was something like "There is racism....but it's complex"



    No white people here- of the few that even admitted they were white- have explained what being white means.

    Instead we have several of the nonwhites here attempting to shout me down for even asking the questions while the white people here either sit back and observe, ridicule/lob insults, and generally refuse to even "go there".

    That is what I have observed.


    But the behavior from the people here is something that I have learned a great deal from.....

    So....

    If you believe problem solving includes talking about the "complexity" of the issue (while doing nothing) instead of using logic that is your belief.



    If you don't believe we live under a world dominated by racism white supremacy, that is your belief.


    If you don't believe race was a concept created by white men to enforce RACISM, that is your belief.

    If you believe that 1+1 does not =2 that is your belief.

    If you believe racsim whitesupremacy is a symptom of "class" that is your belief.

    If you believe racsim whitesupremacy is due to "ignorance" that is your belief.

    If you believe talking about racism white supremacy in a way that makes white people feel "comfortable" is the NOT best way to go that is your belief.


    If you believe that a non white's suspicion of an admitted racist white supremacists is racist that is your belief.

    If you believe that a non white's refusal to give all white people that they believe are able to practice racism white supremacy, the benefit of the doubt is racist , that is your belief.
    Last edited by rhodey; 04-19-2010 at 09:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhodey View Post
    Oh I have learned quite a bit here.

    Which is logical in problem solving.Otherwise 1+1 =?

    Define "human" please.

    What is a "humanist"?

    I suspect the racist white supremacist want nonwhtes to embrace confusion because it keeps them from focusing on racism white supremacy.

    Now I have said , that I could be incorrect. However nothing presented here
    has led me to believe so.

    Actually no one here besides 206 Refugee actually affirmed any belief that we live in a world dominated by racism white supremacy. The strongest statement I believe was something like "There is racism....but it's complex"

    No white people here- of the few that even admitted they were white- have explained what being white means.

    Instead we have several of the nonwhites here attempting to shout me down for even asking the questions while the white people here either sit back and observe, ridicule/lob insults, and generally refuse to even "go there".

    That is what I have observed.


    But the behavior from the people here is something that I have learned a great deal from.....

    So....

    If you believe problem solving includes talking about the "complexity" of the issue (while doing nothing) instead of using logic that is your belief.

    If you don't believe we live under a world dominated by racism white supremacy, that is your belief.

    If you don't believe race was a concept created by white men to enforce RACISM, that is your belief.

    If you believe that 1+1 does not =2 that is your belief.

    If you believe racsim whitesupremacy is a symptom of "class" that is your belief.

    If you believe racsim whitesupremacy is due to "ignorance" that is your belief.

    If you believe talking about racism white supremacy in a way that makes white people feel "comfortable" is the best way to go that is your belief.

    If you believe that a non white's suspicion of an admitted racist white supremacists is racist that is your belief.

    If you believe that a non white's refusal to give all white people that they believe are able to practice racism white supremacy, the benefit of the doubt is racist , that is your belief.
    Plagiarist.

    Liar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhodey View Post
    [...]No white people here- of the few that even admitted they were white- have explained what being white means.[...]

    Explain what being black means.

    ...

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    Rhodey - you've been tacitly assuming your own definition of white: white people are whoever people who identify as white say are white. After all, you told us earlier on that Turkish people are white, but you and Chinese people are not because people who identify themselves as white tell you this everyday.

    What, exactly, is wrong with that definition: white people are all and only those people called white by people that identify as white?

    Alternatively: (1) people whose ancestors are from Europe. Or (2) people who look like people whose ancestors are from Europe.

    Of course, these alternatives are vague, but so are most concepts in life. (Chair, table, building, water etc.)
    Last edited by Monny JcIntosh; 04-19-2010 at 10:39 AM.
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    Why should we care what white people -- whoever they're supposed to be -- think being white means?
    since feeling is first
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    Quote Originally Posted by the crackhouse View Post
    We are not taking intellectual levels into account on DHP.

    You have a lower member status, therefore you're wrong and inferior.

    No skin color involved.

    Idance
    As far as I am concerned this board Begins and Ends with me.

    if I chose to play....I do....if I chose not to participate....I do not.

    bullshit ass DHP internet status means NOTHING to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuzanneT View Post
    You disagree with this statement?
    She is correct, minority women especially black and latina women have been sterotyped as wild and hot and white women as pure. Where have you been?
    unpack this.....explain?

    Seeing that White girls have more out of wedlock babies than Minorities and more teen pregnancies...

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    If you believe problem solving includes talking about the "complexity" of the issue (while doing nothing) instead of using logic that is your belief.
    Interesting that you assume that bit about doing nothing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monny JcIntosh View Post
    Rhodey - you've been tacitly assuming your own definition of white:
    Sure I was trying to get more information from white people about what it really means to be white. You wanna help me out?

    white people are whoever people who identify as white say are white.
    Ok so that actually coincides with the part of the definition I was using. So as a white person what criteria do you use to say someone else is white?


    After all, you told us earlier on that Turkish people are white
    No sir that would be incorrect. I do recall someone saying Turks are not white and then asking if Turks with Ukrainian origins considered themselves white. I never got a answer....

    but you and Chinese people are not because people who identify themselves as white tell you this everyday.
    White people do not classify me as a white person.


    What, exactly, is wrong with that definition: white people are all and only those people called white by people that identify as white?
    Nothing if that is what you go by. It seems to describe what white person is to you. For me it doesn't say what it means to be white be white person. Meaning what is the function of a white person. What does a white person DO that no other person does.....



    Alternatively: (1) people whose ancestors are from Europe. Or (2) people who look like people whose ancestors are from Europe.
    But then how for do go back with ancestors? Aren't all our ancestors originally from a part of the world called Africa?

    Also is it possible to have ancestors from Europe,and not be considered white? Many non white so called African Americans have ancestors that once lived in Europe.

    Of course, these alternatives are vague, but so are most concepts in life. (Chair, table, building, water etc.)
    So you think water is a vague concept? I thought the purpose of a definition was to "define".

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrazenMuse View Post
    Interesting that you assume that bit about doing nothing.
    True my mistake Brazenmuse my apologies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhodey View Post
    True my mistake Brazenmuse my apologies.
    Plagiarist.

    Liar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhodey View Post
    Nothing if that is what you go by. It seems to describe what white person is to you. For me it doesn't say what it means to be white be white person. Meaning what is the function of a white person. What does a white person DO that no other person does.....

    But then how for do go back with ancestors? Aren't all our ancestors originally from a part of the world called Africa?

    Also is it possible to have ancestors from Europe,and not be considered white? Many non white so called African Americans have ancestors that once lived in Europe.

    So you think water is a vague concept? I thought the purpose of a definition was to "define".
    It's difficult to keep track of what you're responding to, but I'll give it a go.

    If the question, what does it mean to be a white person, means, what is the distinctive function of a white person, I suspect the answer is: nothing, or there is no such thing. Why should people have an essential function?

    As for the rest of your response, all your questions simply point to the fact that the definitions I offered -- (1) and (2) -- are vague in various ways. What is it to have European ancestors? What is it to look like you have European ancestors? But there's nothing surprising in that. Many concepts are vague. (So too are many definitions.) Yes, I think water is a vague concept. Is the stuff that comes out your tap water?
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  23. #1223
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    Pretty much any concept outside of mathematics is vague - it has borderline cases.
    since feeling is first
    who pays any attention
    to the syntax of things
    will never wholly kiss you
    -e.e.cummings

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhodey View Post
    No sir that would be incorrect. I do recall someone saying Turks are not white and then asking if Turks with Ukrainian origins considered themselves white. I never got a answer....
    Didn't you deny that the Turkish genocide of Armenians was perpetrated by nonwhites? My mistake. So was the Turkish genocide of Armenians perpetrated by nonwhites? (You can ask a white person, whoever they're supposed to be.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monny JcIntosh View Post
    It's difficult to keep track of what you're responding to, but I'll give it a go.

    If the question, what does it mean to be a white person, means, what is the distinctive function of a white person, I suspect the answer is: nothing, or there is no such thing. Why should people have an essential function?
    Under a system of justice I don't think people should have essential functions based on the made up concept of race. But under the current system of injustice (Racism White supremacy) I suspect that being white serves a specific purpose with commensurate functions. But I could be incorrect.

    As for the rest of your response, all your questions simply point to the fact that the definitions I offered -- (1) and (2) -- are vague in various ways.
    Which is why I use other definitionswhen I feel those that are presented dont get the job done.

    What is it to have European ancestors? What is it to look like you have European ancestors? But there's nothing surprising in that. Many concepts are vague. (So too are many definitions.)
    Perhaps. Do you think being white and what goes with being white is vague to all white people, even the most powerful white people?



    Yes, I think water is a vague concept. Is the stuf\\f that comes out your tap water?
    1. A clear, colorless, odorless, and tasteless liquid, H2O, essential for most plant and animal life and the most widely used of all solvents. Freezing point 0°C (32°F); boiling point 100°C (212°F); specific gravity (4°C) 1.0000; weight per gallon (15°C) 8.338 pounds (3.782 kilograms).

    Not vague to me, but to each his own.

    Thankyou for your responses Monny.

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