"The History of White People": What it means to be white

[BrazenMuse]

Thank you Brazen Muse.

You are quite welcome.
I'd like to ask you for a detailed and thoughtful response to the points I've raised in these last two posts. Not a series of the thoughts of others, but your own responses based on your observations, learning and cogitations...please.

[rhodey]

Of course it's complicated. Why do you say "complicated" like it's a bad thing?

And many were complicit in the horror of the Holocaust, in ways that are utterly horrific. That is the reality. And we need to find ways to understand that horror. It is in the refusal to reduce complexity to levels of inanity that the real work lies.

None of my argument has been a matter of exonerating anyone and I am sorry if you somehow got that impression. People are individuals and act for individual reasons. I'm deeply horrified that there were, if there were, Jews involved in killing their own people the Holocaust (haven't vetted your source)...but do I disbelieve it entirely? No. Milgram Experiment, Stanford Experiment, Blue/Eye Brown Eye exercises...these and more show us what can happen in terms of the individual faced with the demands of those who have authority/power in any particular context. Transform the blame into response-ability. Then think about what response should entail. Justice is complex as well...

So , if I understand correctly, you believe the Jews should not "blame" the Nazis for cooking them in the ovens? You believe they need to expand the scope of responsibility to include the treacherous ones amongst them who assisted the Nazis?

Do you feel that the Jews deserve reparations despite the fact that some assisted in the demise of their own kind?

If you told a Jew that "You know the Holocaust was complicated, some of your own people helped bring the oven to cooking temperature". What type of impression do you think that would leave?

[rhodey]

You are quite welcome.
I'd like to ask you for a detailed and thoughtful response to the points I've raised in these last two posts. Not a series of the thoughts of others, but your own responses based on your observations, learning and cogitations...please.

Of course, and I ask you not to have Time Wise or Peggy Mcintosh speak for you as well.

I feel you truly believe what you believe. I respect your opinion . What it comes down to is that you do not believe racism white supremacy exists and I do. There's really not much more to say about that.

You apparently believe African slavery roughly parallels chattel slavery. You believe that a blame game is being played with chattle slavery and that Africans should shoulder the responsibility.

If a source backed that up for you ,you are behind it, if a source counters that it needs to be vetted (impossible for a nonwhite under R.W.S. ,IMO) and is a labeled as an attempt at sentimentalism. So there you have it...stalemate.

[BrazenMuse]

So , if I understand correctly, you believe the Jews should not "blame" the Nazis for cooking them in the ovens? You believe they need to expand the scope of responsibility to include the treacherous ones amongst them who assisted the Nazis?

Do you feel that the Jews deserve reparations despite the fact that some assisted in the demise of their own kind?

If you told a Jew that "You know the Holocaust was complicated, some of your own people helped bring the oven to cooking temperature". What type of impression do you think that would leave?

Interestingly reductive again. Blame is fruitless. We know that the Nazi government, made up of individuals (some of whom were tried at Nuremberg) who were individually and collectively RESPONSIBLE for the horror of the Holocaust. Getting at responsibility, or response-ability, can help us think of ways to make the survivors whole. Blame simply keeps people pointing fingers and tail chasing. I've had that discussion with Jewish friends, and it is a very fraught issue. Many were responsible, many died. Many died horrifically. The "never forget" campaigns and attitudes are one way of coping with it...being watchdogs so that such things cannot happen again are part of an active response to the horror. Pointing fingers is not. I've had this discussion in classes before, and recognize the urge to be reductive as a hazard. Current example: teabaggers.

Reparations to Holocaust survivors and their descendants have been paid in many cases...it does not change the history, but it may help to assuage the sting and clear the air for the work of making sure it can't happen again. But that was all within ONE century. There is nothing we can do for those who died in the Inquisition, or in the pogroms that were so popular in Europe prior to WWII and going back centuries. We must learn from it in order not to repeat it. In order to learn from it, we must recognize the complexity of the issues.

[BrazenMuse]

Of course, and I ask you not to have Time Wise or Peggy Mcintosh speak for you as well.

I feel you truly believe what you believe. I respect your opinion . What it comes down to is that you do not believe racism white supremacy exists and I do. There's really not much more to say about that.

You apparently believe African slavery roughly parallels chattel slavery. You believe that a blame game is being played with chattle slavery and that Africans should shoulder the responsibility.

If a source backed that up for you ,you are behind it, if a source counters that it needs to be vetted (impossible for a nonwhite under R.W.S. ,IMO) and is a labeled as an attempt at sentimentalism. So there you have it...stalemate.

I suppose it is a stalemate if you say it is. I don't have a problem with using source material that encapsulates or stimulates my thinking. Understand that I believe racism exists; I simply don't buy this vision or analysis of it is useful in any way because it closes off too many inconvenient realities. It's a Procrustean Bed kind of construct. Understand also, I don't buy "blame" as useful and believe it is ethically and morally irresponsible to feed into it. Responsibility, yes. Blame, no. I am asking you to look at the terms in which the arguments are being couched and to recognize their most glaring flaw...oversimplification. Using sentimental terms leads to sentimentalism. It's propaganda and spin-doctoring.

We all use metaphors to see and understand the world; that is how humans use language. Yours and mine are worlds apart. It's that simple. So long as you refrain from assuming that recognizing complexity and trying to cope with the world as it is are not automatically matters of "doing nothing," we are fine. Each person does the work demanded by their own conscience if we are each trying to live a good life and be the change we want to see in the world. You've gone down a path that I will not take. Call it stalemate if you like. I hope that your work and your beliefs help you make the world a better place. I ask that you look critically at your sources and the world around you, without the sentimentality and without replacing responsibility with blame. That's all.

[rhodey]

Interestingly reductive again. Blame is fruitless. We know that the Nazi government, made up of individuals (some of whom were tried at Nuremberg) who were individually and collectively RESPONSIBLE for the horror of the Holocaust. Getting at responsibility, or response-ability, can help us think of ways to make the survivors whole. Blame simply keeps people pointing fingers and tail chasing. I've had that discussion with Jewish friends, and it is a very fraught issue. Many were responsible, many died. Many died horrifically. The "never forget" campaigns and attitudes are one way of coping with it...being watchdogs so that such things cannot happen again are part of an active response to the horror. Pointing fingers is not. I've had this discussion in classes before, and recognize the urge to be reductive as a hazard. Current example: teabaggers.


Reparations to Holocaust survivors and their descendants have been paid in many cases...it does not change the history, but it may help to assuage the sting and clear the air for the work of making sure it can't happen again. But that was all within ONE century. There is nothing we can do for those who died in the Inquisition, or in the pogroms that were so popular in Europe prior to WWII and going back centuries. We must learn from it in order not to repeat it. In order to learn from it, we must recognize the complexity of the issues.

Thank you.

[BrazenMuse]

whew.

[rhodey]

I suppose it is a stalemate if you say it is. I don't have a problem with using source material that encapsulates or stimulates my thinking. Understand that I believe racism exists; I simply don't buy this vision or analysis of it is useful in any way because it closes off too many inconvenient realities. It's a Procrustean Bed kind of construct. Understand also, I don't buy "blame" as useful and believe it is ethically and morally irresponsible to feed into it. Responsibility, yes. Blame, no. I am asking you to look at the terms in which the arguments are being couched and to recognize their most glaring flaw...oversimplification. Using sentimental terms leads to sentimentalism. It's propaganda and spin-doctoring.

Well that is your opinion and I do disagree however I could be incorrect.

We all use metaphors to see and understand the world; that is how humans use language. Yours and mine are worlds apart. It's that simple. So long as you refrain from assuming that recognizing complexity and trying to cope with the world as it is are not automatically matters of "doing nothing," we are fine. Each person does the work demanded by their own conscience if we are each trying to live a good life and be the change we want to see in the world. You've gone down a path that I will not take. Call it stalemate if you like. I hope that your work and your beliefs help you make the world a better place. I ask that you look critically at your sources and the world around you, without the sentimentality and without replacing responsibility with blame. That's all.

And I ask that you follow the logic.

[BrazenMuse]

Well that is your opinion and I do disagree however I could be incorrect.



And I ask that you follow the logic.

We shall simply have to agree to disagree. You walk your path and I walk mine. I was asking you to follow my logic as well...but you have declared a stalemate. So be it.

[rhodey]

We shall simply have to agree to disagree. You walk your path and I walk mine. I was asking you to follow my logic as well...but you have declared a stalemate. So be it.

Brazenmuse I believe 1+1=2

You believe in Socio Political Calculus

[BrazenMuse]

Brazenmuse I believe 1+1=2

You believe in Socio Political Calculus

And I believe that 1+1=2 as part of that calculus.
The texts you posted led to my specific responses. I followed the logic. I just didn't end up where you did. And that's okay.

[rhodey]

And I believe that 1+1=2 as part of that calculus.
The texts you posted led to my specific responses. I followed the logic. I just didn't end up where you did. And that's okay.

Indeed.

[the crackhouse]

Hey CrackHouse your tag says you are located in Belgium. How do you feel about what happened in the Congo?

Never heard about it. Thanks for the info.

Idance

[rhodey]

Never heard about it. Thanks for the info.

Idance

Thanks Crackhouse.

[the crackhouse]

Thanks Crackhouse.

You're so easy to catch. Perfect subject for regimentation.

I will let you the benefit of the noob, but that's all I could gather after all this mess of yours.

Idance

[rhodey]

You're so easy to catch. Perfect subject for regimentation.


Idance

Why would you say that CrackHouse? Didn't you claim ignorance of the Genocide in the Congo?

[206REFUGEE]

Never heard about it. Thanks for the info.

Idance

Lying ass RWS.

White people will NEVER admit their culpability.

Which is why non whites should never fraternize with them.

[206REFUGEE]

And I believe that 1+1=2 as part of that calculus.
The texts you posted led to my specific responses. I followed the logic. I just didn't end up where you did. And that's okay.

awwwl, BrazenMuse and Rhodney found a happy medium.

[the crackhouse]

Why would you say that CrackHouse? Didn't you claim ignorance of the Genocide in the Congo?

This exhibition is some RNWS propaganda.

I will not fall into this. Will not give money to their system.

Idance

[the crackhouse]

Lying ass RWS.

White people will NEVER admit their culpability.

Which is why non whites should never fraternize with them.

When you eat a chicken, do you go to the hen house and say "sorry" to the whole family?

Idance

[rhodey]

This exhibition is some RNWS propaganda.

I will not fall into this. Will not give money to their system.

Idance

Hmm so you need to lie just to avoid addressing it?

Now CrackHouse that is pretty weak. Even AMC had the courage to express his views and Brazen Muse certainly wasn't intimidated.

So Crackhouse , (if you can summon up the courage to answer)why do you feel the article I presented to you was "propoganda"?

[rhodey]

Lying ass RWS.

White people will NEVER admit their culpability.

Which is why non whites should never fraternize with them.

It would appear that Crackhoouse does not want to be burned....

[the crackhouse]

Hmm so you need to lie just to avoid addressing it?

Now CrackHouse that is pretty weak. Even AMC had the courage to express his views and Brazen Muse certainly wasn't intimidated.

So Crackhouse , (if you can summon up the courage to answer)why do you feel the article I presented to you was "propoganda"?

You don't know how much efforts I do to be weak.

Idance

[the crackhouse]

It would appear that Crackhoouse does not want to be burned....

You're calling for a lynch?

That's pretty insane.

Idance

[BrazenMuse]

awwwl, BrazenMuse and Rhodney found a happy medium.

Exercising the ol' intellect is always fun...