Question for those who don't believe in God

[Nay Sayer]

However if they are clinically dead their eyes aren't functioning....next...

Yeah, but clinically dead doesn't necessarily mean death.

[mhd]

However if they are clinically dead their eyes aren't functioning....next...

if their eyes are not functioning how are they "seeing"?

[DaBownca]

It's called "clinical death", rather than "death" for a reason: certain functions have stopped, but that's not to say that you have stopped functioning.

You still haven't drawn a parallel between seeing visions as a result of that and a bone healing or nausea

[mhd]

You still haven't drawn a parallel between seeing visions as a result of that and a bone healing or nausea

huh?

[Monny JcIntosh]

You still haven't drawn a parallel between seeing visions as a result of that and a bone healing or nausea

Geo's point was why would you think that there isn't a parallel? Creatures like us all experience nausea in a certain way, why shouldn't we experience clinical death in a certain way? You haven't yet made out a puzzle. What's special about the experience of clinical death as opposed to say, the experience of an itchy toe?

[dag]

For the answers from Huey geo dag and and Timmy, you diminidh your argument by belittling the premise of the debate. Firstly, let us keep in mind I never said where my beliefs lie. To continue, why or how could you equate experiences of the conscious with those who have clinically CEASED functioning? It is a legitimate scientific question, yet some act as much the zealot in their response as people who try to force religious beliefs (not one or two days after posting in a thread where Atheism = common sense)
ngeso, Jimmy and Nay Sayer thank you for your replies there was sense there.
I'm curioous El Mayimbe...why exactly the head shake and the crazy sign? I saw no argument or counter-point.

i wasnt diminishing anything. the dmt experience is absolutely profound, and it was under controlled conditions. I knew that I was going to come out of it, and I had a chance to read up on it before. Someone going through a near death experience does not have such luxuries. The brain chemistry stuff could just have well been their last experience, so I can empathize that near death survivors would be in some state of awe following reanimation.

as for those that have experienced whatever they have experienced while flat-lined, a typical dmt experience is about 5 minute, but feels like hours. While in the trip, the body and ego disappear from your mind. The "god" i saw, was actually a toy in the room I was in. I havent really read about any near death experiences which contrasted with mine, aside from the almost dying thing.

[DaBownca]

if their eyes are not functioning how are they "seeing"?

When you are asleep and you dream the images present in the dreams are interpreted through what sense exactly? Or what sensory output is closest?

[DaBownca]

Geo's point was why would you think that there isn't a parallel? Creatures like us all experience nausea in a certain way, why shouldn't we experience clinical death in a certain way? You haven't yet made out a puzzle. What's special about the experience of clinical death as opposed to say, the experience of an itchy toe?

I guess nothing.

[DaBownca]

i wasnt diminishing anything. the dmt experience is absolutely profound, and it was under controlled conditions. I knew that I was going to come out of it, and I had a chance to read up on it before. Someone going through a near death experience does not have such luxuries. The brain chemistry stuff could just have well been their last experience, so I can empathize that near death survivors would be in some state of awe following reanimation.

as for those that have experienced whatever they have experienced while flat-lined, a typical dmt experience is about 5 minute, but feels like hours. While in the trip, the body and ego disappear from your mind. The "god" i saw, was actually a toy in the room I was in. I havent really read about any near death experiences which contrasted with mine, aside from the almost dying thing.

My bad I re-read and admit i was a bit defensive there. It also made more of an impact on me after reading the links from ngeso and Jimmy. My bad... now where can I get summa dat shyt...

[DaBownca]

huh?

I simply do not see a connection between someone saying they have seen God or heaven or long dead relatives on a perceived metaphysical plane to the ailments stated such as a break or a possible food allergy. So sue me.

[Monny JcIntosh]

When you are asleep and you dream the images present in the dreams are interpreted through what sense exactly? Or what sensory output is closest?

Why think they're "interpreted" through any sense? (Do you have to be seeing something to imagine seeing it?) And what is it to interpret an image through a sense in any case?

[Monny JcIntosh]

I simply do not see a connection between someone saying they have seen God or heaven or long dead relatives on a perceived metaphysical plane to the ailments stated such as a break or a possible food allergy. So sue me.

Failure to comprehend is not generally a good argumentative strategy.

You're asking people to explain a kind of experience, and geo has pointed out that there's no obvious reason to think that the explanation of that kind of experience will be interestingly different to the explanations of other kinds of experience. Until you can give us a reason for thinking that the explanation must be different, you haven't raised a genuine puzzle.

[DaBownca]

Failure to comprehend is not generally a good argumentative strategy.

You're asking people to explain a kind of experience, and geo has pointed out that there's no obvious reason to think that the explanation of that kind of experience will be interestingly different to the explanations of other kinds of experience. Until you can give us a reason for thinking that the explanation must be different, you haven't raised a genuine puzzle.

I am not compelled to give anyone anything. I am not arguing. I simply stated I don't see the connection and if you feel compelled to show the connection do so. If not, do not.
In regards to the sensory issue, how can you imagine seeing something without having already having seen it? Even if it was seen in your "mind's eye"?

[DJ Timmy Richardson]

Chuck my point is that many people from Herbert Armstrong to Malcolm X to George Foreman have seen visions. They claim a god Was responsible. And I believe what they experienced had nothing to do with a god anymore than when I have a migraine and see lights.

[DaBownca]

Chuck my point is that many people from Herbert Armstrong to Malcolm X to George Foreman have seen visions. They claim a god Was responsible. And I believe what they experienced had nothing to do with a god anymore than when I have a migraine and see lights.

I understand that but my point spoke SPECIFICALLY to the clinical death situation not the conscious mann thats a whole nuther fruit stand talking about everyone who has had visions

[FK]

The human brain does funny things. Given the right chemicals, it can sense all sorts of strange stuff that isn't there. At the time of death, there are many chemical changes going on, and these changes produce some common experiences (as do LSD, ketamine, etc.).

But Chuck, the fact that people in this culture interpret these phenomenon as the Judeo-Christian "God" is due to social conditioning. The exact same experience viewed through other religious traditions is given much different meanings. Just as various religions in the past have given different meanings to the sun (a god, a god's vehicle, a creature, a place, etc.), or different menal illnesses due to chemical imbalances have been given spiritual meanings (oracles, witches, etc.), religions give this experience different meanings based on their doctrines.

F.A.O. Chuckie: It would be both difficult and pointless for me to add to this.... but I will. (!!!)

Neurology is a dazzlingly complex science of phenomenon poorly understood at best, and probably will be for some time to come.

Please do keep in mind that less than three centuries ago, (approximately 15 human generations, a blink of an eye when compared to our evolutionary history) our best doctors did not really understand that blood flows TO and FROM body parts in a specific way, and carrying a different payload each time.

It is however a well-documented thing that most psychedelic drugs act the way they do by interacting at some level in the brain by substituting themselves for substances that neurotransmitters like those that carry dopamine send to the neural input areas, which customarily act as a 'trusted delivery system' or sorts, transmitting translated sensory input and chemical stimuli to the brain's neurons. (utterly simplified and likely borked, but you get the general idea)

The brain is only able to relate to the outside reality via these intermediaries, and there is undoubtedly a strong parallel between the effects of oxygen starvation when blood stops flowing to it, and those of many psychoactive substances such as LSD and MDMA.

Religion has throughout history made its business to successfully explain and rationalize things that were beyond the layperson's comprehension, in the process gaining the trust of many who were too afraid of hanging question marks on this and similar other topics they were trying to understand, some at the most basic level and which in all fairness our brightest minds still haven't been able to entirely decipher.

But to my mind, some of these 'Visions Of Heaven's Gates™' experiences relate a bit more to seeing the Virgin Mary's face appear on a piece of toast than anything really substantiated. Then again, who really knoez ?

For this a LOLCat find I must.

[travy]

I understand that but my point spoke SPECIFICALLY to the clinical death situation not the conscious mann thats a whole nuther fruit stand talking about everyone who has had visions

the whole of your mind is just a vast bank of info that your conscious mind tries to interpret the best it can. who's to say what happens when you 'die' and come back. things can get shuffled around. your mind fills in gaps to help 'you' deal with the trauma you've just faced. or something else entirely.

the point is, there is so much we don't know about our minds that the possibilities are limitless and to write it all off as 'god' or an afterlife seems shortsighted to me.

[Monny JcIntosh]

I am not compelled to give anyone anything. I am not arguing. I simply stated I don't see the connection and if you feel compelled to show the connection do so. If not, do not.

Nobody needs to show a connection. Think of it like this: why didn't you just ask how atheists can explain why so many people report a painful sensation when they stub their toe? Presumably, because you think there's something special about the experience of clinical death. But we're wondering what exactly that something special is supposed to be.

I'm not wondering about your argument. I'm wondering why you think your question is interesting.

In regards to the sensory issue, how can you imagine seeing something without having already having seen it? Even if it was seen in your "mind's eye"?

I can imagine seeing all kinds of things I've never seen.

[geo]

You still haven't drawn a parallel between seeing visions as a result of that and a bone healing or nausea

Sorry Chuck only just getting going out here on the West coast. My point wasn't meant to come across as being facetious at all. What I was trying to convey to you is that we all feel physiological pain and also emotions etc. in the same way- so why wouldn't the near death experience mirror this?

I think you need to take that fact, add in the DMT point and then the social conditioning and you have your answer.

ps- That DMT is no joke! Crazy stuff. Read about the studies where subjects were injected with very high doses. People reported having "experiences with a perceived alien entity. Usually, the reported entities were experienced as the inhabitants of a perceived independent reality the subjects reported visiting while under the influence of DMT."

[DaBownca]

@ travy thanx for your input.
@ FK very interesting and thoughful as usual from you and I gotta see what LOLcat you find for this! However, in regard to your statement about Religion, while accurate, it doesn't apply here IMO because we are talking about INDIVIDUALS stating these occurances. Moshka kinda read my mind when he expounded about how the religious images are subconsciously embedded and may be the cause. Yet there are cases where supoosed Atheists "found God" under these circumstances.
@ Monny if my question is not interesting to you then simply do not participate. This may be energy that can be used to tell a love one on your last breath that you love them.
@ geo you already know

[travy]

i should add:

[DaBownca]

i should add:

So you saw that article that someone in Mexico saw me on a beef patty huh.....

[mhd]

the whole of your mind is just a vast bank of info that your conscious mind tries to interpret the best it can. who's to say what happens when you 'die' and come back. things can get shuffled around. your mind fills in gaps to help 'you' deal with the trauma you've just faced. or something else entirely.

the point is, there is so much we don't know about our minds that the possibilities are limitless and to write it all off as 'god' or an afterlife seems shortsighted to me.

would you include the divine as a possibility?

[The Good Reverend Rollo Goodlove]

For the answers from Huey geo dag and and Timmy, you diminidh your argument by belittling the premise of the debate. Firstly, let us keep in mind I never said where my beliefs lie. To continue, why or how could you equate experiences of the conscious with those who have clinically CEASED functioning? It is a legitimate scientific question, yet some act as much the zealot in their response as people who try to force religious beliefs (not one or two days after posting in a thread where Atheism = common sense)
ngeso, Jimmy and Nay Sayer thank you for your replies there was sense there.
I'm curioous El Mayimbe...why exactly the head shake and the crazy sign? I saw no argument or counter-point.

I don't have an argument. I was just effin' around.

[Nay Sayer]

Religion has throughout history made its business to successfully explain and rationalize things that were beyond the layperson's comprehension, in the process gaining the trust of many who were too afraid of hanging question marks on this and similar other topics they were trying to understand, some at the most basic level and which in all fairness our brightest minds still haven't been able to entirely decipher.

Yes. The Preacher and the Snake-Oil salesman have much in common.

But to my mind, some of these 'Visions Of Heaven's Gates™' experiences relate a bit more to seeing the Virgin Mary's face appear on a piece of toast than anything really substantiated.

Exactly. People often times look @ a thing and see what they want to see. Stands to reason that this also happens @ the subconscious level...