Decided not to go to law school......

[The Good Reverend Rollo Goodlove]

Nothing in the article will stop that individual who feels passionately about the practice of law and confidence about their ability to succeed in law school and in the practice.

This Full steam ahead!

[mhd]

Bruh...there are a lot of "clowns" who believe in the "pie in the sky" sold by law schools. Have you not noticed the proliferation of disgruntled lawyer blogs and articles about law school and the cost? The article only asks that people do a realistic assessment of law school and the practice of law prior to entering. Part of that assessment is considering the cost, the potential pay off and whether you're truly passionate about the law. You yourself said it's not for everyone. If so, why is it wrong to consider these factors? Not considering them would be irresponsible.

Nothing in the article will stop that individual who is passionate about the practice of law and has confidence in their ability to succeed in law school and in the practice. It certainly didn't stop me. And that's partly because I paid attention to articles like this and listened to lawyers like YOU, TAC, AK, etc. In other words, I had my eyes wide open and knew the game that had to be played. I don't know why you would discourage others from doing the same thing.

actually i haven't noticed that, too busy fighting the good fight and serving our community to be disgruntled, too busy advising law students and young lawyers about how to be successful in doing well and doing good

[Doug]

actually i haven't noticed that, too busy fighting the good fight and serving our community to be disgruntled, too busy advising law students and young lawyers about how to be successful in doing well and doing good

OK bruh

[VEESTER]

I so love this thread!!!

[mhd]

OK bruh

sorry, had to run off, but, the article and all of the negative fear mongering about law school just does not apply to my orientation, the practice of law as an economic engine as a vehicle for social engineering is just too powerful to be disuaded by these commentators. if law school cost 500,00 and you needed a 30 year payment plan it would still be a great investment from the community's stake, that is just how impactful lawyers have been in our society, from the great civil rights lawyers of the past, who risked their lives to defend our rights on a daily basis to the trial lawyers of today that rake in multi-million dollar verdicts on a regular basis, check my boy larry rogers, jr, (and his dad) in chicago, willie gary in fla, these cats came from mid to low tier schools to the top of the profession, willie got the highest jury verdict in history, so, i'm not sure why you are saying i am discouraging, i am encouraging getting the right information, not the misinformation that is apparently so widespread these days

[TAC]

sorry, had to run off, but, the article and all of the negative fear mongering about law school just does not apply to my orientation, the practice of law as an economic engine as a vehicle for social engineering is just too powerful to be disuaded by these commentators. if law school cost 500,00 and you needed a 30 year payment plan it would still be a great investment from the community's stake, that is just how impactful lawyers have been in our society, from the great civil rights lawyers of the past, who risked their lives to defend our rights on a daily basis to the trial lawyers of today that rake in multi-million dollar verdicts on a regular basis, check my boy larry rogers, jr, (and his dad) in chicago, willie gary in fla, these cats came from mid to low tier schools to the top of the profession, willie got the highest jury verdict in history, so, i'm not sure why you are saying i am discouraging, i am encouraging getting the right information, not the misinformation that is apparently so widespread these days

I'm hearing you, mhd. Allow me to rephrase.... So, what I hear you saying is that given the death of advocates on behalf of the community, we should encourage as many of "us" to attend law school so they can go on to eventually effect social change. Yes?

[Doug]

sorry, had to run off, but, the article and all of the negative fear mongering about law school just does not apply to my orientation, the practice of law as an economic engine as a vehicle for social engineering is just too powerful to be disuaded by these commentators. if law school cost 500,00 and you needed a 30 year payment plan it would still be a great investment from the community's stake, that is just how impactful lawyers have been in our society, from the great civil rights lawyers of the past, who risked their lives to defend our rights on a daily basis to the trial lawyers of today that rake in multi-million dollar verdicts on a regular basis, check my boy larry rogers, jr, (and his dad) in chicago, willie gary in fla, these cats came from mid to low tier schools to the top of the profession, willie got the highest jury verdict in history, so, i'm not sure why you are saying i am discouraging, i am encouraging getting the right information, not the misinformation that is apparently so widespread these days

I hear you. But isn't part of getting the right information getting ALL of the information though? I mean there are facts in the article that can't be ignored. I encounter college and law students all the time (like you, I'm involved and mentor as much as possible) and it's disturbing sometimes to see how ill-prepared and uninformed they are about what needs to be done in school and out of school to succeed. I wouldn't want anyone to spend $100K on this if they aren't serious, focused and driven to succeed.

[mhd]

I'm hearing you, mhd. Allow me to rephrase.... So, what I hear you saying is that given the death of advocates on behalf of the community, we should encourage as many of "us" to attend law school so they can go on to eventually effect social change. Yes?

thing is, just by attending they are effecting social change, the social engineering that charles hamilton houston espoused that thurgood carried out that we benefit from today, think about the work the Innocence Project is doing, the work that bryan stevenson and michelle alexander are doing the work of the ldf over the years including my girl jackie berrien who was just sworn in as chair of the eeoc, you cannot measure the impact that these few have had on society and the tragic consequence if they decided not to go to law school because it is expensive

[mhd]

I hear you. But isn't part of getting the right information getting ALL of the information though? I mean there are facts in the article that can't be ignored. I encounter college and law students all the time (like you, I'm involved and mentor as much as possible) and it's disturbing sometimes to see how ill-prepared and uninformed they are about what needs to be done in school and out of school to succeed. I wouldn't want anyone to spend $100K on this if they aren't serious, focused and driven to succeed.

yes and no, you were probably one of the most prepared cats in the history of law school applicants, lol, thing is, most are clueless, even you may admit that describing first year and going through it are two totally different things, but i find that most have no concept about the profession, our job is to fix that to educate, clarify, dispel myths, etc. and most of all to recognize what data applies to you and what does not.

[TAC]

thing is, just by attending they are effecting social change, the social engineering that charles hamilton houston espoused that thurgood carried out that we benefit from today, think about the work the Innocence Project is doing, the work that bryan stevenson and michelle alexander are doing the work of the ldf over the years including my girl jackie berrien who was just sworn in as chair of the eeoc, you cannot measure the impact that these few have had on society and the tragic consequence if they decided not to go to law school because it is expensive

See, but you're asking people to be a martyr for some overall social good. Not that many are gonna be up for that dude. What's more, that's not exactly fair to put that on a person's shoulders.

[Doug]

yes and no, you were probably one of the most prepared cats in the history of law school applicants, lol, thing is, most are clueless, even you may admit that describing first year and going through it are two totally different things, but i find that most have no concept about the profession, our job is to fix that to educate, clarify, dispel myths, etc. and most of all to recognize what data applies to you and what does not.

I can get with that.

[Chuck P]

At the end of the day an individual has to do what they perceive to be the best decision given the information that they have not to mention other personal or professional variables that they may have........

If you feel good about a decision that you have made based off of information that you have deemed credible and you can honestly assert that your due diligence has served you well, than you should be alright with your decision.......

Making an impact on society can be had from many occupations, hell even the prez suggested in his SOTU address that more emphasis needed to be put on IT so this is not a pipe dream that ends with 4o grand worth of debt and a completely useless degree.....

I have a buddy who is in law school right now @ DePaul, and just had another co-worker finish her law degree @ DePaul and she had to move to Florida to solidify a quality internship that would turn into a quality position with a firm..........

My buddy who is a 2L was told that teaching may be the strongest way to go right now, and he said he wasn't interested in teaching law so he has to make some tough choices moving forward...........

[mhd]

See, but you're asking people to be a martyr for some overall social good. Not that many are gonna be up for that dude. What's more, that's not exactly fair to put that on a person's shoulders.

where you getting martyr from? overall social good? lol, larry rogers, jr, settled a case for $100 million! fair? to fight against the death penalty that is wrongly applied to your community? to run the eeoc and fight against discrimination in the workplace is not exactly fair? come again?

[mhd]

At the end of the day an individual has to do what they perceive to be the best decision given the information that they have not to mention other personal or professional variables that they may have........

If you feel good about a decision that you have made based off of information that you have deemed credible and you can honestly assert that your due diligence has served you well, than you should be alright with your decision.......

Making an impact on society can be had from many occupations, hell even the prez suggested in his SOTU address that more emphasis needed to be put on IT so this is not a pipe dream that ends with 4o grand worth of debt and a completely useless degree.....

I have a buddy who is in law school right now @ DePaul, and just had another co-worker finish her law degree @ DePaul and she had to move to Florida to solidify a quality internship that would turn into a quality position with a firm..........

My buddy who is a 2L was told that teaching may be the strongest way to go right now, and he said he wasn't interested in teaching law so he has to make some tough choices moving forward...........

dude, give them my number

[Doug]

Threadjack (since part of this discussion concerns influential black lawyers):

Va. Supreme Court Justice Hassell dies at 55
By Times Dispatch Staff


Virginia Supreme Court Justice Leroy Rountree Hassell Sr., the state's first black chief justice, has died at 55, the high court confirmed today.

Mr. Hassell missed the court’s January session because he was recuperating from a recent hospital stay. He also missed the governor’s state of the commonwealth address Jan. 12 for the same reason. The Virginia Supreme Court did not release further details about the nature of his health problems.

Virginia Lawyers Weekly reported this morning that Mr. Hassell spoke to the Virginia Bar Association on Jan. 21, when he was given the group’s distinguished service award. The presentation was made during the group's dinner meeting by former Gov. Gerald L. Baliles, who appointed Mr. Hassell in 1989.

According to the weekly, Mr. Hassell appeared frail at the podium, and he mentioned his health only in a passing reference to a bad reaction to some medicine.

“Without question, the chief was a man of consequence," Baliles said today. "When he spoke, people listened. When he administered the affairs of justice, he did so with firmness and, yet, compassion."

In a brief statement, the Supreme Court said, "Our thoughts and prayers are with his family at this time."

Nominated to the state’s high court at age 34, Mr. Hassell was elected chief justice in 2002 and became the state’s first black chief justice on Feb. 1, 2003. He was also the first chief justice elected by other members of the court. He recently completed that term and was succeeded by Justice Cynthia Kinser.

Mr. Hassell, the fifth of six children, was a graduate of Norview High School in Norfolk. Both of his parents were educators. His father, who died three months before Mr. Hassell was appointed to the Supreme Court, was an assistant high school principal. His mother was an elementary school teacher and later, a school social worker.

Mr. Hassell graduated in 1977 from the University of Virginia, where he won a Scholar of the Year award. Three years later, he graduated from Harvard University Law School. He served there as a recruiter in the admissions office and worked on the Civil Liberties Law Review.

After law school, Mr. Hassell joined the law firm of McGuireWoods, where he specialized in commercial and professional liability litigation and was co-counsel to the Richmond Redevelopment and Housing Authority. He also served as chairman of the Richmond School Board.

Among his accomplishments, Mr. Hassell established a Commission on Mental Health Law Reform in 2006. The panel's work resulted in, among other sweeping changes, recommendations to ease the standard for involuntary commitment from "imminent danger" to "substantial likelihood" that a patient would harm himself or another person.

The "reforms take an essential first step in the effort to improve the commitment process -- by clarifying the criteria for involuntary treatment, enhancing the quality of clinical evaluations and strengthening the procedures for mandatory outpatient treatment," Richard Bonnie, the director of the University of Virginia's Institute of Law, Psychiatry and Public Policy and chairman of the Virginia chief justice's Commission on Mental Health Law Reform said in 2008.

Baliles said he kept in touch with Mr. Hassell after appointing him to the state's high court.

"I valued his friendship, his contributions to the commonwealth and the country, and respected his integrity, intellectual depth and commitment to access to justice for all our people, regardless of circumstance," Baliles said.

Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli said in a statement: “Today we mourn the passing of Justice Leroy Hassell Sr., who has left us in the prime of his years. The Norfolk native will be nobly remembered by Virginians for many things, including his intellect, his warmth, and his concern for the downtrodden."

"Justice Hassell served as the commonwealth’s first black chief justice, which he accepted with both a measure of discomfort and resolve,” Cuccinelli said.

Cuccinelli quoted Mr. Hassell telling the Richmond Times-Dispatch in 2003 that he did not wish to serve because of his race, but a "desire to serve because I am a Virginian by birth who has a strong affection and love for the commonwealth and its people.”

Cuccinelli continued, “Chief Justice Hassell played an important role in helping our generation look beyond the racial lines that separated us, and toward a culture of merit and justice that unite us. He was both generous and resolute in his determination to help his fellow man. Virginia is greater and stronger because of his example, and he will be greatly missed."

Today the Courts of Justice Committees in the House of Delegates and the state Senate are scheduled to screen candidates for another vacancy on the high court, the seat of retiring Justice Lawrence L. Koontz Jr. This year Koontz reaches the mandatory retirement age of 70. Because the legislature is in session, it will also select Mr. Hassell's successor.

Away from the bench, Mr. Hassell endured a number of legal problems with two of his children.

Leroy R. Hassell Jr. faces a possible life term in prison at a March 17 sentencing in Henrico County Circuit Court after pleading guilty in December to robbery and two lesser charges stemming from a home invasion last June. The 23-year-old Hassell had previous arrests and convictions in Henrico for forgery, petty larceny, illegal entry and embezzlement.

Hassell’s daughter, Joanna I. Hassell, was 18 when she was convicted in June 2009 of shoplifting in Henrico for leaving a Macy’s at Regency Square mall without paying for several items of clothing valued at $71.97. She was given a 30-day suspended sentence.

[mhd]

Threadjack (since part of this discussion concerns influential black lawyers):

Va. Supreme Court Justice Hassell dies at 55
By Times Dispatch Staff


Virginia Supreme Court Justice Leroy Rountree Hassell Sr., the state's first black chief justice, has died at 55, the high court confirmed today.

Mr. Hassell missed the court’s January session because he was recuperating from a recent hospital stay. He also missed the governor’s state of the commonwealth address Jan. 12 for the same reason. The Virginia Supreme Court did not release further details about the nature of his health problems.

Virginia Lawyers Weekly reported this morning that Mr. Hassell spoke to the Virginia Bar Association on Jan. 21, when he was given the group’s distinguished service award. The presentation was made during the group's dinner meeting by former Gov. Gerald L. Baliles, who appointed Mr. Hassell in 1989.

According to the weekly, Mr. Hassell appeared frail at the podium, and he mentioned his health only in a passing reference to a bad reaction to some medicine.

“Without question, the chief was a man of consequence," Baliles said today. "When he spoke, people listened. When he administered the affairs of justice, he did so with firmness and, yet, compassion."

In a brief statement, the Supreme Court said, "Our thoughts and prayers are with his family at this time."

Nominated to the state’s high court at age 34, Mr. Hassell was elected chief justice in 2002 and became the state’s first black chief justice on Feb. 1, 2003. He was also the first chief justice elected by other members of the court. He recently completed that term and was succeeded by Justice Cynthia Kinser.

Mr. Hassell, the fifth of six children, was a graduate of Norview High School in Norfolk. Both of his parents were educators. His father, who died three months before Mr. Hassell was appointed to the Supreme Court, was an assistant high school principal. His mother was an elementary school teacher and later, a school social worker.

Mr. Hassell graduated in 1977 from the University of Virginia, where he won a Scholar of the Year award. Three years later, he graduated from Harvard University Law School. He served there as a recruiter in the admissions office and worked on the Civil Liberties Law Review.

After law school, Mr. Hassell joined the law firm of McGuireWoods, where he specialized in commercial and professional liability litigation and was co-counsel to the Richmond Redevelopment and Housing Authority. He also served as chairman of the Richmond School Board.

Among his accomplishments, Mr. Hassell established a Commission on Mental Health Law Reform in 2006. The panel's work resulted in, among other sweeping changes, recommendations to ease the standard for involuntary commitment from "imminent danger" to "substantial likelihood" that a patient would harm himself or another person.

The "reforms take an essential first step in the effort to improve the commitment process -- by clarifying the criteria for involuntary treatment, enhancing the quality of clinical evaluations and strengthening the procedures for mandatory outpatient treatment," Richard Bonnie, the director of the University of Virginia's Institute of Law, Psychiatry and Public Policy and chairman of the Virginia chief justice's Commission on Mental Health Law Reform said in 2008.

Baliles said he kept in touch with Mr. Hassell after appointing him to the state's high court.

"I valued his friendship, his contributions to the commonwealth and the country, and respected his integrity, intellectual depth and commitment to access to justice for all our people, regardless of circumstance," Baliles said.

Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli said in a statement: “Today we mourn the passing of Justice Leroy Hassell Sr., who has left us in the prime of his years. The Norfolk native will be nobly remembered by Virginians for many things, including his intellect, his warmth, and his concern for the downtrodden."

"Justice Hassell served as the commonwealth’s first black chief justice, which he accepted with both a measure of discomfort and resolve,” Cuccinelli said.

Cuccinelli quoted Mr. Hassell telling the Richmond Times-Dispatch in 2003 that he did not wish to serve because of his race, but a "desire to serve because I am a Virginian by birth who has a strong affection and love for the commonwealth and its people.”

Cuccinelli continued, “Chief Justice Hassell played an important role in helping our generation look beyond the racial lines that separated us, and toward a culture of merit and justice that unite us. He was both generous and resolute in his determination to help his fellow man. Virginia is greater and stronger because of his example, and he will be greatly missed."

Today the Courts of Justice Committees in the House of Delegates and the state Senate are scheduled to screen candidates for another vacancy on the high court, the seat of retiring Justice Lawrence L. Koontz Jr. This year Koontz reaches the mandatory retirement age of 70. Because the legislature is in session, it will also select Mr. Hassell's successor.

Away from the bench, Mr. Hassell endured a number of legal problems with two of his children.

Leroy R. Hassell Jr. faces a possible life term in prison at a March 17 sentencing in Henrico County Circuit Court after pleading guilty in December to robbery and two lesser charges stemming from a home invasion last June. The 23-year-old Hassell had previous arrests and convictions in Henrico for forgery, petty larceny, illegal entry and embezzlement.

Hassell’s daughter, Joanna I. Hassell, was 18 when she was convicted in June 2009 of shoplifting in Henrico for leaving a Macy’s at Regency Square mall without paying for several items of clothing valued at $71.97. She was given a 30-day suspended sentence.

much respect, rip, at 55 he left way too soon

[Steven Stewart]

you were probably one of the most prepared cats in the history of law school applicants

How does one reach this plateau?

[mhd]

How does one reach this plateau?

doug's wife is a lawyer for starters, lol, and he reached out to cats that take an active role in giving detailed, comprehensive support and instruction on the keys to preparation and success for the crucial first year of school by breaking down the year into semesters, months, weeks and days. he asked a lot of questions, got multiple sources of information, all of that prep lowered anxiety and he executed, to the fullest.

[Steven Stewart]

doug's wife is a lawyer for starters, lol, and he reached out to cats that take an active role in giving detailed, comprehensive support and instruction on the keys to preparation and success for the crucial first year of school by breaking down the year into semesters, months, weeks and days. he asked a lot of questions, got multiple sources of information, all of that prep lowered anxiety and he executed, to the fullest.

Thanks!

[mhd]

Thanks!

no doubt, if you ever want to talk about it hit me up, quite honestly, there is no excuse not to succeed at this point with the kind of info we have and the willingness of cats to share, and just so you know, doug was named mentor of the year which is exactly how it should be, you get help you give help and we constantly refine the technique

[Doug]

doug's wife is a lawyer for starters, lol, and he reached out to cats that take an active role in giving detailed, comprehensive support and instruction on the keys to preparation and success for the crucial first year of school by breaking down the year into semesters, months, weeks and days. he asked a lot of questions, got multiple sources of information, all of that prep lowered anxiety and he executed, to the fullest.

Stephen - Mark leaves out the fact that I reached out to him, TAC and AK specifically. Their advice was invaluable But yes, I did a lot of due diligence...like two years worth. I read books, I talked to a lot of lawyers, I took a law school prep course, I knew, understood and accepted all the risks...and I sacrificed and worked my muthafuckin' ass off. And while in school, I took advantage of any and every opportunity to shine. No shame in my game because like De La said, stakes is high.

[Steven Stewart]

Stephen - Mark leaves out the fact that I reached out to him, TAC and AK specifically. Their advice was invaluable But yes, I did a lot of due diligence...like two years worth. I read books, I talked to a lot of lawyers, I took a law school prep course, I knew, understood and accepted all the risks...and I sacrificed and worked my muthafuckin' ass off. And while in school, I took advantage of any and every opportunity to shine. No shame in my game because like De La said, stakes is high.

Good stuff, looks like a Blueprint to me...

[TAC]

See, but you're asking people to be a martyr for some overall social good. Not that many are gonna be up for that dude. What's more, that's not exactly fair to put that on a person's shoulders.

I use martyr in a metaphorical sense (think recent grad with $100k in loans, eating beans and struggling to get by). The question remains social engineering for who's ultimate gain. For the whole? What about the individual being crushed by law school debt? Who benefits?

In truth, my response mixes multiple issues, but I believe that I've raise a valid point as to whether individuals should sacrifice themselves in this market. Plus, not all are up for the fight, as evidenced by Chucks comment.

[206REFUGEE]

If law is your calling, by all means become an attorney. However, if you are in it for the Money.....you will suffer from this lifestyle.


You can tell, Johnnie Cochran loved what he did; he excelled at it. And life rewarded him handsomely for his passion with money, prestige and Bookoo respect.

[mhd]

I use martyr in a metaphorical sense (think recent grad with $100k in loans, eating beans and struggling to get by). The question remains social engineering for who's ultimate gain. For the whole? What about the individual being crushed by law school debt? Who benefits?

In truth, my response mixes multiple issues, but I believe that I've raise a valid point as to whether individuals should sacrifice themselves in this market. Plus, not all are up for the fight, as evidenced by Chucks comment.

i get you, and you asked a very narrow question when my analysis included social justice strictly, pursuing ultimate financial gain and combinations of the two, so, you right, those not up for the fight are not asked to go the front. there are plenty more than happy and wiling to fight for the whole