Dont do drugs party people, or Meth that is..

[DaBownca]

Some people get cancer; others do not. Does this prove cancer is a matter of will?
Correlation does not equal causation. The matrix by which casual use shifts into addiction is based on a variety of factors that require one to look case by case. But one thing is sure, polygenic inheritance (the single gene theory has been discredited over the last five years) plays a strong role in who does and does not become an addict. Recent studies at Standford have begun to map the influence concerning alcohol; and The University of Pennsylvania released a study last year that shows genes have even stronger mediation in heroin.

Furthermore, even those users lucky enough to not have a predisposition to addiction can, with long term use, develop issues that make sobriety problematic. Long term use has been shown to change the way neurons communicate with each other. In the most general sense, new patterns of communication redistribute the way in which users encounter both the world and things like cravings, wants and inhibitions. This is particularly true with cocaine use--and many researchers speculate that because meth's recovery percentage is the lowest of any popular drug, it will prove to have even greater influence on the user reality.

In short, sure, getting sober takes effort, and there are and will always be those folks who invite their own misery. But, by and large, users who have a history of long-term and repeated relapse are seldom part of that group. More often, they fall into one or both of the categories I briefly outline above. Thus, to understand recovery as a matter of will is naive at best. And to then use anecdotal evidence as proof of such a claim is not only wrongheaded, it's irresponsible.

Bullshit. First of all comparing drug addiction to cancer is not only wrongheaded , it's irresponsible. You can pull all the Standford (sic) cards you want and it will not change what I witnessed. To trivialize what to me was a courageous display of will in all the cases I experienced is borderline disrespectful.
Secondly, what does the fact that you capitulate to the fact that getting sober takes effort ( uh duuuh) have to do with there being people who invite their own misery? And i never said recovery as a whole was a matter of will. I indicated there are people whose will is strong enough to overcome addiction.
Slow down when handing out invectives cowboy.

[the crackhouse]

That's pretty much how 12-step programs work. Kick your addiction to drugs by getting addicted to Jesus, when really, you're just learning how to have your own willpower again.

The problem is not in willpower. This is (again) some sort of commonly admitted picture of humans being superheros.

To me "willpower is in everyone" is as stupid as saying that black people are all the same. Same principle of generalization, same way of avoiding the multiplicity of this world.

Why are there so many men with erectile problems who will not talk about it?
Why are there so many beaten down wives who will never call the cops?
What about people who take medications without a prescription?
How many people are eager to talk freely about their depression?
Where do live people with down syndrom?

Drug is a taboo and seen as evil in our societies, as far as I know it's as old as prositution and society is closing its eyes over this problem which cannot be solved at will (haha-joke) as would be milk or eggs sales.
Even animals are getting high!

People would rather try to find a simple excuse to feel safer in front of reality.

We are all born as potentially disabled, but we cross our fingers all life long hoping that hazard will shoot elsewhere. Same goes with drugs... "Wooooh, I've seen the news. It's not hapenning in my family, you know... This horror..."

Idance

[DaBownca]

The problem is not in willpower. This is (again) some sort of commonly admitted picture of humans being superheros.

To me "willpower is in everyone" is as stupid as saying that black people are all the same. Same principle of generalization, same way of avoiding the multiplicity of this world.

Why are there so many men with erectile problems who will not talk about it?
Why are there so many beaten down wives who will never call the cops?
What about people who take medications without a prescription?
How many people are eager to talk freely about their depression?
Where do live people with down syndrom?

Drug is a taboo and seen as evil in our societies, as far as I know it's as old as prositution and society is closing its eyes over this problem which cannot be solved at will (haha-joke) as would be milk or eggs sales.
Even animals are getting high!

People would rather try to find a simple excuse to feel safer in front of reality.

We are all born as potentially disabled, but we cross our fingers all life long hoping that hazard will shoot elsewhere. Same goes with drugs... "Wooooh, I've seen the news. It's not hapenning in my family, you know... This horror..."

Idance

Except for down syndrome what is necessary for these people to begin addressing the problem? It is will. Even admitting to yourself there is a problem takes will. Willpower does exist in all humans and it is our most underused gift.

[the crackhouse]

Bullshit. First of all comparing drug addiction to cancer is not only wrongheaded , it's irresponsible. You can pull all the Standford (sic) cards you want and it will not change what I witnessed. To trivialize what to me was a courageous display of will in all the cases I experienced is borderline disrespectful.
Secondly, what does the fact that you capitulate to the fact that getting sober takes effort ( uh duuuh) have to do with there being people who invite their own misery? And i never said recovery as a whole was a matter of will. I indicated there are people whose will is strong enough to overcome addiction.
Slow down when handing out invectives cowboy.

Idance

[Phyllis Hyman Cherry]

Crackhouse you gotta show me who got the good shit,you should meet me in amsterdam this summer.My partner is going there on business and i maybe coming,first time on an airplane and out of the country.

[the crackhouse]

Except for down syndrome what is necessary for these people to begin addressing the problem? It is will. Even admitting to yourself there is a problem takes will. Willpower does exist in all humans and it is our most underused gift.

There's (a priori) no gift as will in life.
Your brain is not a gift, but maybe everything which stands in "where you're coming from" is one.

That's what you're doing of it, and certainly not will. Will or determination are just concepts that you place upon your actions to have the feeling that they are good and victories, when they are just some consequencies of your acts and the response of your environment.

As beautiful it can be to see someone get out of huge problems, it's not will but choices that lead her/his actions.

If they fail at the end, people will say "not enough willpower", but if they succeed, they will acclaim the same efforts with "wow, that's some determinate jock we got here!".

It doesn't take away the fact that such concepts helps a lot of people to get out of some prejudicial loops they can't stop repeating.

Idance

[DaBownca]

There's (a priori) no gift as will in life.
Your brain is not a gift, but maybe everything which stands in "where you're coming from" is one.

That's what you're doing of it, and certainly not will. Will or determination are just concepts that you place upon your actions to have the feeling that they are good and victories, when they are just some consequencies of your acts and the response of your environment.

As beautiful it can be to see someone get out of huge problems, it's not will but choices that lead her/his actions.

If they fail at the end, people will say "not enough willpower", but if they succeed, they will acclaim the same efforts with "wow, that's some determinate jock we got here!".

It doesn't take away the fact that such concepts helps a lot of people to get out of some prejudicial loops they can't stop repeating.

Idance

If you say so.... I obviously know nothing I thank you for the lesson

[the crackhouse]

Crackhouse you gotta show me who got the good shit,you should meet me in amsterdam this summer.My partner is going there on business and i maybe coming,first time on an airplane and out of the country.

It would be a pleasure to meet you there if I can make it, but for the drugs you'll have to ask MarkK who lives under a car, eat pigeons and bites old ladies near the old canal.

Idance

[the crackhouse]

If you say so.... I obviously know nothing I thank you for the lesson

C'mon Chucky, don't take it that way, it's just my point of view at 2 AM on a monday night here!

Nobody holds the truth,

Peace


Idance

[DaBownca]

C'mon Chucky, don't take it that way, it's just my point of view at 2 AM on a monday night here!

Nobody holds the truth,

Peace


Idance

Its cool fam I was just done

[bomb cola]

The Meth is not the lone issue.Its the fact that they had no will power and abused the meth that caused them that condition.How many of us have used drugs and continue to use drugs and know when its time to cool it?I know several people who use Meth on a recreational purpose and are just fine.Im not with the whole Nancy Reagan "so no to drugs"thing.It should be say no to "lack of will power".

Exactly. These aren't casual users.

[LOKEE]

Bullshit. First of all comparing drug addiction to cancer is not only wrongheaded , it's irresponsible.

The point was not to create an analogue between addiction and cancer. The point was to illustrate how preposterous it is to understand correlation as causation.

You can pull all the Standford (sic) cards you want and it will not change what I witnessed.

Man, we live and die by typos on here, huh? Now, I'm not one to play that game normally, but may I suggest that before you try to play, you need to get your comma/independent clause game tight?

More to the point, my mention of those two schools was not a matter of their respective prestige; rather, they are at the cutting edge of addiction research. As such, many of the newest studies come out of either Stanford or Penn.

Furthermore, anecdotal evidence of the sort you witnessed is tricky. It can lead us to conclusions that seem to be grounded in reality but, in fact, are derived through imperfections of the eye, culture and myriad other things. (The world looks flat. Does that mean it is?) Scientific studies attempt to lessen the impact of those imperfections through rigor. It is the rigor--which includes everything from the obvious use of control groups to peer review--that allows us to draw conclusion beyond the limited scope of bearing witness.

So, yes, I can tell my own stories of recovery. I can also tell numerous ones that concern the 1000s of folks I worked with in recovery programs. But these stories only tell one thing: the subject's story. The larger picture requires the rigor.

To trivialize what to me was a courageous display of will in all the cases I experienced is borderline disrespectful.

I don't know where I did this. I did not reduce the efforts made by those individuals you know; I merely challenged the idea that such efforts were about will.

Secondly, what does the fact that you capitulate to the fact that getting sober takes effort ( uh duuuh) have to do with there being people who invite their own misery?

In this instance, I was acknowledging that not all drug abuse is a matter of genetics; the connection was one in which a lack of effort on the part of the user invites misery.

And i never said recovery as a whole was a matter of will. I indicated there are people whose will is strong enough to overcome addiction.

Your statements communicate something different:

And some drugs addictive qualities are just stronger than some peoples wills.

My point is further reinforced by the fact that some people can quit cold turkey and others cannot. That is an example of will.

If it is not will then what would you call someone who quits a highly addictive drug without medication or medical treatment?

[DaBownca]

The point was not to create an analogue between addiction and cancer. The point was to illustrate how preposterous it is to understand correlation as causation.



Man, we live and die by typos on here, huh? Now, I'm not one to play that game normally, but may I suggest that before you try to play, you need to get your comma/independent clause game tight?

More to the point, my mention of those two schools was not a matter of their respective prestige; rather, they are at the cutting edge of addiction research. As such, many of the newest studies come out of either Stanford or Penn.

Furthermore, anecdotal evidence of the sort you witnessed is tricky. It can lead us to conclusions that seem to be grounded in reality but, in fact, are derived through imperfections of the eye, culture and myriad other things. (The world looks flat. Does that mean it is?) Scientific studies attempt to lessen the impact of those imperfections through rigor. It is the rigor--which includes everything from the obvious use of control groups to peer review--that allows us to draw conclusion beyond the limited scope of bearing witness.

So, yes, I can tell my own stories of recovery. I can also tell numerous ones that concern the 1000s of folks I worked with in recovery programs. But these stories only tell one thing: the subject's story. The larger picture requires the rigor.



I don't know where I did this. I did not reduce the efforts made by those individuals you know; I merely challenged the idea that such efforts were about will.




In this instance, I was acknowledging that not all drug abuse is a matter of genetics; the connection was one in which a lack of effort on the part of the user invites misery.



Your statements communicate something different:

Yeah okay. I'm done

[MarkK]

It would be a pleasure to meet you there if I can make it, but for the drugs you'll have to ask MarkK who lives under a car, eat pigeons and bites old ladies near the old canal.

Idance

I only do organics, not sure if that is exciting to Phil

http://www.deephousepage.com/forums/...35&postcount=8

[Kemmot]

I understand your point Eddie but look at this aspect...the after pics all have striking similarities in regards to the persons changes in features, skin deterioration and even pigment. Also more than likely these pics were shown as part of some kind of study on meth use not just randomly chosen.
Kemmot no one was getting righteous. How was Eddie defending the users?

He hates the before and after pics and suggests theres more to this than meets the eye..but really theres nothing else here to see other than the point blank devastating effects of drug use, theres no conspiracy or hidden agenda here. These are law enforcement pics that'll be used to scare people off of using drugs, I fail to see what the big deal is. The only thing that you can deduce from his statement is that in addition and as a result of the usage, people dont eat, bathe etc and lose nuitrition and appetite and develop skin lesions.
Or perhaps he feels this is an invasion of these zombies civil rights to have their mugshots posted for all to see. Normal healthy people dont look like this, unless theyre on heroin or something which I doubt cause its expensive and hard to find. Look, there always has to be an opppsiong view and he came with it, and we respect that.

[Kemmot]

and crack is really like ginko biloba, good for the brain and memory

Right..
Even if a person has an iron cast brain and will power, the physical effects will still take hold..I dont see how a person can go cold turkey on meth or other hard shit without dying, we may not see the internal effects on the brain but the physical ones are plain as daylight.
This isnt like weed where if your dealer isnt picking up his phone and theres weak shit round the corner you sleep it off or go to the gym, these folks are literally walking dead.

[Dal-Tex]

Pretty much all drugs are bad because it f*cks with the natural production of dopamine in the brain. Nuff said.

[MarkK]

Pretty much all drugs are bad because it f*cks with the natural production of dopamine in the brain. Nuff said.

Damn right, and penicillin fucks with the natural production of bacteria...

[DeesKo]

Yeah okay. I'm done

Chuck, Lokee isn't discounting the role will power can play in recover, what he's saying is that studies and decades of clinical research/monitoring have shown there are genetic roles at play as well.

In some, the genetics are such that no amount of will power is going to overcome & in others, the genetics are such that overcoming is possible.

Stop being hard-headed and listen to what he's saying. As much as I hate to admit it, he knows what he's talking about.

[DaBownca]

Chuck, Lokee isn't discounting the role will power can play in recover, what he's saying is that studies and decades of clinical research/monitoring have shown there are genetic roles at play as well.

In some, the genetics are such that no amount of will power is going to overcome & in others, the genetics are such that overcoming is possible.

Stop being hard-headed and listen to what he's saying. As much as I hate to admit it, he knows what he's talking about.

His knowledge wasn't the problem. I found it unnecessary for him to call me naive and my statements wrongful and irresponsible which I don't feel i was mind you so I wasn't being hard-headed as much as maybe defensive and perhaps a bit snippy. People need to realize that it is difficult to teach when you name call. Let it go I'm over it.

[DeesKo]

His knowledge wasn't the problem. I found it unnecessary for him to call me naive and my statements wrongful and irresponsible which I don't feel i was mind you so I wasn't being hard-headed as much as maybe defensive and perhaps a bit snippy. People need to realize that it is difficult to teach when you name call. Let it go I'm over it.

Boiling everything down to willpower (which you were doing) is naive and wrong, and could be disastrous if someone is found in a position to be helping someone overcome addiction.

If you have someone genetically predisposed to addiction, simply telling them to man up isn't going to work, and holding it against them because they didn't man up isn't going to be helpful.

Knowing that there may be genetic and/or mental issues at play (such as the changes in communication within the brain that come with addiction) can help you help them more effectively and can remove some of the stigma/disdain/misunderstanding from the addict's shoulders so that they can stop beating themselves up for not having enough willpower, and start looking for medical ways to address the underlying physiological aspects of their addiction.

Just my 2 cents.

Consider it dropped.

I'm off to Standford for the day anyway.

[DaBownca]

Boiling everything down to willpower (which you were doing) is naive and wrong, and could be disastrous if someone is found in a position to be helping someone overcome addiction.

If you have someone genetically predisposed to addiction, simply telling them to man up isn't going to work, and holding it against them because they didn't man up isn't going to be helpful.

Knowing that there may be genetic and/or mental issues at play (such as the changes in communication within the brain that come with addiction) can help you help them more effectively and can remove some of the stigma/disdain/misunderstanding from the addict's shoulders so that they can stop beating themselves up for not having enough willpower, and start looking for medical ways to address the underlying physiological aspects of their addiction.

Just my 2 cents.

Consider it dropped.

I'm off to Standford for the day anyway.

What is it with you folks that you don't understand the concept of "some"? As in SOME PEOPLES WILLS
Even Lokee when citing my posts posted two sentences where "some" was clearly indicated but the response was given as if I had said this holds for everybody.

[DeesKo]

What is it with you folks that you don't understand the concept of "some"? As in SOME PEOPLES WILLS
Even Lokee when citing my posts posted two sentences where "some" was clearly indicated but the response was given as if I had said this holds for everybody.

As the discussion continued your statements became less and less inclusive of anything other than willpower being the defining trait of success vs failure.

If it is not will then what would you call someone who quits a highly addictive drug without medication or medical treatment?

You can pull all the Standford (sic) cards you want and it will not change what I witnessed. To trivialize what to me was a courageous display of will in all the cases I experienced is borderline disrespectful.

Except for down syndrome what is necessary for these people to begin addressing the problem? It is will.

[DaBownca]

As the discussion continued your statements became less and less inclusive of anything other than willpower being the defining trait of success vs failure.

In those particular cases it was in defense of the some I spoke of. Paraphrasing without the entire context can cause statements to be misconstrued.

[DeesKo]

In those particular cases it was in defense of the some I spoke of. Paraphrasing without the entire context can cause statements to be misconstrued.

defending them from what?

do you feel that acknowledging that there is a genetic influence on addiction, and the potential for recovery from that addiction cheapens their accomplishment or something?