Greece, the Collapse of the Euro and You

[bkny11203]

LOL, are you channeling Alvin or what? That is exactly what he does, uses a bs souce to back up a highly dubious statement.

Regardless, what interest does the UN or US have in a single global currency? Sounds to me like a global currency would kill the USA.

You are acting like I sent you a link to Billy Bob's Blog.Granted Fox News is slanted on the news they report. They are still a major news outlet. Which once again backed the comment that I made. I made a statement, got called on it, and provided proof of what I said. What else do you want dood?

Again...let Google be your friend and you will see the conference that Fox talked about in their piece happened.

You are trying draw me into the debate of the whole thing, which I want no part of. I was merely making a reply to what Armen said. That's it.

[alvin]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/c...ce-dollar.html

In essence, the report calls for a new Bretton Woods-style system of managed international exchange rates, meaning central banks would be forced to intervene and either support or push down their currencies depending on how the rest of the world economy is behaving.

"Replacing the dollar with an artificial currency would solve some of the problems related to the potential of countries running large deficits and would help stability," said Detlef Kotte, one of the report's authors. "But you will also need a system of managed exchange rates. Countries should keep real exchange rates [adjusted for inflation] stable. Central banks would have to intervene and if not they would have to be told to do so by a multilateral institution such as the International Monetary Fund."

http://www.unctad.org/en/docs/tdr2009fas_en.pdf

Therefore, what kind of system would be appropriate for the future globalized economy and for countries
in crisis?

Establishing such a system would take some time, not least because it requires international consensus
and multilateral institution building. Meanwhile, at the national level proactive capital account management
could provide protection against destabilizing capital flows, and at the regional level greater monetary and
financial cooperation, including reserve pooling, regional payments clearance mechanisms that function
without using the dollar, and regional exchange-rate systems could help countries in the region to avert
financial and currency crises, or manage them better if they occurred.

[alvin]

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504383_1...05-504383.html

The United Nations would like the dollar, euro, yen, and other national currencies to be succeeded by a new "global currency."

That recommendation appears in a U.N. report released this week, which suggests the dollar's outsize role in international finance has ended -- and says that it's time to invent a successor currency that would be managed by a "Global Reserve Bank."

[Martin Red]

Sorry to not be as informed on this as I should, but from what I gather at least half of Greece's economy is done "cash under the table", so very few taxes are paid.

Then (and as Bu$h did in the US with his stupid tax cut in order to bait the proles into votin him in for another 4 years) the last 5~6 years of Greek government have seen unsustainable levels of increased social benefits promised to the population in order to win re-election, which no economist would think were ever realistic in the first place. Add to that the gigantic debt accumulated from having spent tens of billions sprucing everything up around Athens for the recent Olympic Games. All of these factors make it anything but a surprise that they would be in this sort of shape.

In hindsight, (again, parallel with the bond and securities rating agencies' lax behavior in the US that made the whole financial crisis possible) shouldn't there be pointed questions as to why the EU's financial oversight committee allowed one of their member countries to put themselves into such a position, when most of this was well-known several years ago, and that in order to gain EU membership the governments had to sign documents stating that they would exactly NOT engage in things like this, as they went beyond a certain threshold of risk?

Not to take anything away from either France or Germany being bullies, but I wonder....

three British families try out the tax, pensions and work practices that caused Greece's economic crisis and brought on the austerity measures aimed at cutting the deficit and qualifying for EU bailouts.

A 54-year-old British hairdresser discovers the generosity of the Greek pensions system, which still allows hairdressers, pastry chefs, radio continuity announcers and people in almost 600 other jobs to retire aged 53 at 90% of their final salary because their jobs are defined as hazardous.

A bus driver reaps the rewards of the Greek approach to state-run services, where bus drivers could be paid up to almost double the national average salary and receive extra bonuses for arriving at work early and for checking bus tickets.

And a British surgeon is delighted to discover how paying income tax the Greek way will transform his disposable income.

The personal experiences of the three main characters are supported by expert interviews that establish the patterns of tax evasion, corruption and mismanagement that have helped to sink the Greek economy.

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/go-greek-for-a-week/

[ngeso]

Yes, but I can't imagine Greece, Portugal and Spain make up more than 10% of their total exports, but your point is of course valid. Germany, like China, is a country that relies on exports and is reluctant to stimulate its own internal demand. However, Germany has many competitive advantages that come from its own internal efficiencies, not simply its membership in the Euro. The PIGS could (theoretically) achieve some of those efficiencies, but have not taken advantage of Euro membership to do so. Its a two-way street, and the PIGS are also guilty of serious excesses.

This article articulates some of your Ngeso: http://www.spiegel.de/international/...703617,00.html

Greece and Portugal together account for barely 2% of the German export volume. They are small fish. But Italy and Spain account for 10% by themselves. It is they that need to be held, because the German export economy would be hit severely, if those two countries decide to declare bankruptcy off a Greek precedent. That's why Greece needs to be sacrificed in terms of political and economic sovereignty. We are going to turn Greece into a bona fide colony to keep the Euro alive, install a tier system of more equal and less equal Europeans.

But it doesn't stop there. Over the last 20 years we have paid a 5% solidarity levy on top of regular income tax to subsidise the former East German states. The result is a state of the art economic infrastructure. We have demonstrated to ourselves how the redistribution of public wealth through a transfer union can work successfully. Even though people are still migrating westwards in droves. Berlin (!) is a place that produces absolute zero of anything, but we have no issues with steamshovelling tax money over there, because to us it somehow seems to make sense. Why not Greece?

[Martin Red]

I'm not sure Berlusconi is going to survive the week.

http://deephousepage.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239576

[Chris Wood]

How did the Greek government let 49% of its people get away with not paying their taxes? They kicked off the snowball that is threatening the rest of us now

[dag]

Greece and Portugal together account for barely 2% of the German export volume. They are small fish. But Italy and Spain account for 10% by themselves. It is they that need to be held, because the German export economy would be hit severely, if those two countries decide to declare bankruptcy off a Greek precedent. That's why Greece needs to be sacrificed in terms of political and economic sovereignty. We are going to turn Greece into a bona fide colony to keep the Euro alive, install a tier system of more equal and less equal Europeans.

But it doesn't stop there. Over the last 20 years we have paid a 5% solidarity levy on top of regular income tax to subsidise the former East German states. The result is a state of the art economic infrastructure. We have demonstrated to ourselves how the redistribution of public wealth through a transfer union can work successfully. Even though people are still migrating westwards in droves. Berlin (!) is a place that produces absolute zero of anything, but we have no issues with steamshovelling tax money over there, because to us it somehow seems to make sense. Why not Greece?

Berlin is the 3rd most visited city in europe (more hotel beds than nyc, top 5 global business conference destination, top medical conference destination), has plenty of scientific r&d, and Spiegel says it is turning into the silicon valley of europe. oh yeah, it was also voted by the country to regain status as the nation's capitol. If Bonn had remained the capitol, i imagine less money would have been dumped here.

don't worry, since the western states bought up "all" the real estate for pfennige on the mark when the wall came down, we are all paying you back in rent what you send over here ;)

[ngeso]

Berlin is the 3rd most visited city in europe (more hotel beds than nyc, top 5 global business conference destination, top medical conference destination), has plenty of scientific r&d, and Spiegel says it is turning into the silicon valley of europe. oh yeah, it was also voted by the country to regain status as the nation's capitol. If Bonn had remained the capitol, i imagine less money would have been dumped here.

don't worry, since the western states bought up "all" the real estate for pfennige on the mark when the wall came down, we are all paying you back in rent what you send over here ;)

Randy, I thought about you when I wrote this, because I reckoned you wouldn't be amused at harsh opinions about Berlin. Let me elaborate.


To begin: Berlin was not voted by the country to become the capital of Germany. Rather, there was/is a provision in the Grundgesetz for Berlin to be turned into the capital on reunification. This was acted upon by parliament in 1991 after very controversial public debate.

I agree that Berlin is a vibrant and magnetic place, when looked at from a particular perspective. Understandably it draws young people for a variety of reasons, including great culture, history, nightlife and a comparitively reasonable cost of living. Rents are (still) cheaper than expensive cities like Munich, Hamburg and Frankfurt. In particular it has become a magnet for people in creative fields (art, architecture, design, fashion, music etc.) because of the relative accessibilty of alternative lifestyles and because of promising synergy potentials.

But another side of Berlin is this: over the past 20 years Berlin has been heavily subsidised, artificially souped up and hyped to visibly demonstrate the post-cold war new republic - or that depiction that Germans would like to see of themselves. So for one the entire federal government as well as countless civil service branches were relocated there at a substantial cost to the taxpayer for reasons of pure prestige (note that most federal ministries still maintain their former Bonn offices as publically maintained outposts). Certainly not to be more central or nearer to the people in a physical or geographical sense (which explains capitals like Brasilia or Abuja), when you consider that Berlin is surrounded by a 100-mile radius of comparitive East German demographic wasteland.

For another post-reunification Berlin rather disappointingly shows how a consumerist economic focus is being stretched excessively to achieve a rank up there with the New Yorks, Londons and Parises (and increasingly Shanghais and Singapores), to get onto the bottom of that perfume bottle. A three-hour walk through Mitte will offer little other than a culturally streamlined moronic progression of boring high street chain store branches in boring commercial buildings. A vision, in my opinion, of dejection. And I know you, as well as many "New-Berliners" from all corners of country and globe perceived as provincial, will vigorously point out that it's all really happening in the tenement back lots in Prenzelberg, Friedrichshain, Neukölln or whichever quarter happens to be the in-place for the in-crowd at a given time. Which I in turn admit is invigourating when you're twentysomething, when there is 24-hour-clubbing, when there is a trust fund to blow, and the uncool everyman masses in the unglamorous bits of the country foot the big bills.

Getting back to the city and how it looks from the sidewalk: twenty years of focus on Kohlian Berlin under Schröder and Merkel have not yielded a single piece of internationally noteworthy architecture (and I am grudgingly discounting Liebeskind's Jewish museum, the holocaust memorial, and Foster's third workover of the Reichstag). This is symptomatic of our German think-small culture, and our inability to understand or generate public aesthetics (Again, the Berlin creative scene will howl at this in exasperation, but - as I've said - I'm looking at Berlin from a different angle) It is futile to search for a Millenium Dome, a Gehry or latter-day Hadid, a keen piece of engineering like Calatrava's Liege or Lyon-Satolas, or anything remotely akin to Mitterand's Grand Projets. Potsdamer Platz is an abject, glaring failure of public-private partnership, and the new central station is, frankly, a manifest allround philosophical embarrassment and symbol for societal spatial ineptitude.

Which brings us to some significant mainline economic truths. Aside from Deutsche Bahn, none of Germany's top 20 blue chip companies (and less than 5 of the top 100) is headquartered in Berlin. Not a single banking or insurance institution of any significance has its seat in the German capital. To date Germany's economic wealth continues to be generated in the southern and western states (Bavaria, Baden-Würtemberg, Ruhr Area), and in the metropolitan regions in the heart of the European Megalopolis. Geographically and demographically Berlin and its environs are at best peripheral to the German and European economic "engine room".

So, coming back to the Spiegel Silicon Valley analogy (an article that I read with interest): Yes, perhaps the start-up crowd is increasingly swarming to Berlin (which is part of the increasingly visible gentrification), but this is - as I pointed out earlier - due to the potentially nebulous promise of synergy. And, of course, because IMO Berlin has become the single biggest creative sweatshop with the lowest payscales in midwestern Europe. So we will see how that pans out.

I'm sorry to say, liberally paraphrasing Kennedy, that I am not a Berliner. And arguably I will never become one, either. I came to Germany two years before the fall of the wall, and since then most of my training and practice (architecture and townplanning), as well as the interaction in my private circles (architects, designers, music and entertainment professionals), has had to do with understanding and dealing with Berlin and its significance. Certainly, my political identity was shaped tremendously by the collapse of the Eastern Bloc and reunification. In case you're wondering: I was born in Sachsen in then East Germany, and while I did not grow up in Europe, I have a childhood and teenage experience of both West and East Berlin (including negotiating the inner-German border to visit my family numerous times) before '89. Which is not to say, that while I think Berlin is in many ways overrated, it certainly is a fun place to go and see and enjoy. But so are many other places.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_d...in_Deutschland
http://www.forbes.com/global2000/lis...ll_All_Germany



p.s.: I'm sorry we didn't get together a few weeks ago, when I was in Berlin for three days. It was a company trip, so there was a lot of company program to attend, but I had a good time, taking in as much as I could of the city. I'll keep you posted of when I'll be ther next.

...

[bomb cola]

How did the Greek government let 49% of its people get away with not paying their taxes? They kicked off the snowball that is threatening the rest of us now

The US is approaching that # of people that don't pay income tax.

[Armento]

How did the Greek government let 49% of its people get away with not paying their taxes? They kicked off the snowball that is threatening the rest of us now

people that cant get jobs can't pay taxes, people that cant get jobs that don't pay well can't pay taxes

[ngeso]

people that cant get jobs can't pay taxes, people that cant get jobs that don't pay well can't pay taxes

More importantly: how and why did the EU and the European Central Bank not check up on this? Or rather, why did they not back off? This business with basically the common Greek populace scandalously not paying taxes and deceiving all us upright, forthright, honest good Europeans, is a crock of bullshit. Anyone who has ever tried to get a loan from a German bank will realise that Greece must have been inspected thoroughly, that they found some "flexible" conditions, bent that sh*t into shape to meet the Maastricht criteria, and then gave it a "go!". For fucks sakes, people like Draghi were VPs at Goldmann Sachs, before they took over at ECB. Helloooo???

[Martin Red]

Italy debt crisis: patriotism and black comedy amid the gloom

An appeal to save the nation by buying bonds has snowballed, while a TV show reflecting the lows of MPs has become a hit



Demonstrators hold a placard with a portrait of the Italian prime minister, Silvio Berlusconi, during a protest in Rome. Photograph: Alberto Pizzoli/AFP/Getty Images

A veteran political correspondent stepped out of the chamber of deputies after Silvio Berlusconi's body blow on the budget vote and shook his head. "Did you notice how the opposition didn't celebrate? There's a real crisis going on here and they just don't know what to do either."

As hundreds of MPs huddled in the elegant lounges of Rome's parliament after the vote, trying to figure out how the stalemate would play out, Romans in the rainswept streets outside were voicing their frustration at finding Italy on the frontline of a global financial crisis, with politics heading for an impasse instead of finding a way out.

"The real Greek tragedy is here," said Francesco Papa, a local politician sheltering under a stone portico in Piazza del Parlamento.

"If we had been better governed we would have been able to do without the euro, just like Britain, but we threw it away and what wealth there is stays hidden."

Watching the politicians trickle out of parliament, Papa added: "Politics here is based on loyalty to leaders, not on merit, and the transfer market for MPs will continue for a few days. But for me this is the last day I'm interested in politics."

Waiting for the rain to stop under the massive portico of the Galleria Sordi nearby, Giovanni Bulfaro, an engineer, described himself as "a former member of the Italian middle classes. This is a catastrophic situation and I am feeling every minute of it," said Bulfaro, 41. "I hope the government resigns and a technical government can be appointed."

With growth stalled, about 14% of Italians now living in poverty and a third of young people out of work, Berlusconi irked a large number of Italians by saying things were not all bad since restaurants were full, a boast that prompted his interior minister, Roberto Maroni, to say: "You cannot hide the truth."

Marta Carbone, an economist who was checking shop windows inside the Galleria Sordi, warned that the reforms Berlusconi has hurriedly put together to lift the Italian economy could prove a non-starter. "How can you reform the system when the black economy and corruption will doom it to failure?" said Carbone, 28.

Margherita, 19, a philosophy student, said: "I cannot wait for this government to fall, they don't represent me, starting with our ridiculous prime minister."

As Italy waited to see if Berlusconi would resign, a screwball comedy rife with foul language and devious characters, I Soliti Idioti, or The Usual Idiots, has become an unexpected smash hit on television, reflecting for some critics the vulgar lows reached by Italian politicians during the decade Berlusconi has dominated Italian life.

But not all Italians are complaining about their lot.

The appeal made last week to the nation by a Tuscan entrepreneur, Giuliano Melani, to buy Italian government bonds and save the nation has snowballed.

With TV cameras following, Melani bought €20,000 (£17,000) in bonds from his local bank on Monday, and as he went on a chat show on Tuesday, an assistant enrolled to read his emails revealed that 1,000 Italians had already contacted Melani to say they had bought up a total of €2m worth of bonds.

"Silvio Berlusconi is not the problem," said Michele Fidati, manager of a restaurant in the Galleria Sordi.

"The problem is the EU and the markets – we don't know who is running Italy anymore. I have had enough, let's just pass these reforms," he added.

"My message to the politicians in parliament is please, come together and press those voting buttons now."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...ism-amid-gloom

[ngeso]

Italy debt crisis: patriotism and black comedy amid the gloom

An appeal to save the nation by buying bonds has snowballed, while a TV show reflecting the lows of MPs has become a hit



Demonstrators hold a placard with a portrait of the Italian prime minister, Silvio Berlusconi, during a protest in Rome. Photograph: Alberto Pizzoli/AFP/Getty Images

A veteran political correspondent stepped out of the chamber of deputies after Silvio Berlusconi's body blow on the budget vote and shook his head. "Did you notice how the opposition didn't celebrate? There's a real crisis going on here and they just don't know what to do either."

As hundreds of MPs huddled in the elegant lounges of Rome's parliament after the vote, trying to figure out how the stalemate would play out, Romans in the rainswept streets outside were voicing their frustration at finding Italy on the frontline of a global financial crisis, with politics heading for an impasse instead of finding a way out.

"The real Greek tragedy is here," said Francesco Papa, a local politician sheltering under a stone portico in Piazza del Parlamento.

"If we had been better governed we would have been able to do without the euro, just like Britain, but we threw it away and what wealth there is stays hidden."

Watching the politicians trickle out of parliament, Papa added: "Politics here is based on loyalty to leaders, not on merit, and the transfer market for MPs will continue for a few days. But for me this is the last day I'm interested in politics."

Waiting for the rain to stop under the massive portico of the Galleria Sordi nearby, Giovanni Bulfaro, an engineer, described himself as "a former member of the Italian middle classes. This is a catastrophic situation and I am feeling every minute of it," said Bulfaro, 41. "I hope the government resigns and a technical government can be appointed."

With growth stalled, about 14% of Italians now living in poverty and a third of young people out of work, Berlusconi irked a large number of Italians by saying things were not all bad since restaurants were full, a boast that prompted his interior minister, Roberto Maroni, to say: "You cannot hide the truth."

Marta Carbone, an economist who was checking shop windows inside the Galleria Sordi, warned that the reforms Berlusconi has hurriedly put together to lift the Italian economy could prove a non-starter. "How can you reform the system when the black economy and corruption will doom it to failure?" said Carbone, 28.

Margherita, 19, a philosophy student, said: "I cannot wait for this government to fall, they don't represent me, starting with our ridiculous prime minister."

As Italy waited to see if Berlusconi would resign, a screwball comedy rife with foul language and devious characters, I Soliti Idioti, or The Usual Idiots, has become an unexpected smash hit on television, reflecting for some critics the vulgar lows reached by Italian politicians during the decade Berlusconi has dominated Italian life.

But not all Italians are complaining about their lot.

The appeal made last week to the nation by a Tuscan entrepreneur, Giuliano Melani, to buy Italian government bonds and save the nation has snowballed.

With TV cameras following, Melani bought €20,000 (£17,000) in bonds from his local bank on Monday, and as he went on a chat show on Tuesday, an assistant enrolled to read his emails revealed that 1,000 Italians had already contacted Melani to say they had bought up a total of €2m worth of bonds.

"Silvio Berlusconi is not the problem," said Michele Fidati, manager of a restaurant in the Galleria Sordi.

"The problem is the EU and the markets – we don't know who is running Italy anymore. I have had enough, let's just pass these reforms," he added.

"My message to the politicians in parliament is please, come together and press those voting buttons now."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...ism-amid-gloom

It's coming full circle. Greece is nothing.

[dag]

Randy, I thought about you when I wrote this, because I reckoned you wouldn't be amused at harsh opinions about Berlin. Let me elaborate.


To begin: Berlin was not voted by the country to become the capital of Germany. Rather, there was/is a provision in the Grundgesetz for Berlin to be turned into the capital on reunification. This was acted upon by parliament in 1991 after very controversial public debate.

I agree that Berlin is a vibrant and magnetic place, when looked at from a particular perspective. Understandably it draws young people for a variety of reasons, including great culture, history, nightlife and a comparitively reasonable cost of living. Rents are (still) cheaper than expensive cities like Munich, Hamburg and Frankfurt. In particular it has become a magnet for people in creative fields (art, architecture, design, fashion, music etc.) because of the relative accessibilty of alternative lifestyles and because of promising synergy potentials.

But another side of Berlin is this: over the past 20 years Berlin has been heavily subsidised, artificially souped up and hyped to visibly demonstrate the post-cold war new republic - or that depiction that Germans would like to see of themselves. So for one the entire federal government as well as countless civil service branches were relocated there at a substantial cost to the taxpayer for reasons of pure prestige (note that most federal ministries still maintain their former Bonn offices as publically maintained outposts). Certainly not to be more central or nearer to the people in a physical or geographical sense (which explains capitals like Brasilia or Abuja), when you consider that Berlin is surrounded by a 100-mile radius of comparitive East German demographic wasteland.

For another post-reunification Berlin rather disappointingly shows how a consumerist economic focus is being stretched excessively to achieve a rank up there with the New Yorks, Londons and Parises (and increasingly Shanghais and Singapores), to get onto the bottom of that perfume bottle. A three-hour walk through Mitte will offer little other than a culturally streamlined moronic progression of boring high street chain store branches in boring commercial buildings. A vision, in my opinion, of dejection. And I know you, as well as many "New-Berliners" from all corners of country and globe perceived as provincial, will vigorously point out that it's all really happening in the tenement back lots in Prenzelberg, Friedrichshain, Neukölln or whichever quarter happens to be the in-place for the in-crowd at a given time. Which I in turn admit is invigourating when you're twentysomething, when there is 24-hour-clubbing, when there is a trust fund to blow, and the uncool everyman masses in the unglamorous bits of the country foot the big bills.

Getting back to the city and how it looks from the sidewalk: twenty years of focus on Kohlian Berlin under Schröder and Merkel have not yielded a single piece of internationally noteworthy architecture (and I am grudgingly discounting Liebeskind's Jewish museum, the holocaust memorial, and Foster's third workover of the Reichstag). This is symptomatic of our German think-small culture, and our inability to understand or generate public aesthetics (Again, the Berlin creative scene will howl at this in exasperation, but - as I've said - I'm looking at Berlin from a different angle) It is futile to search for a Millenium Dome, a Gehry or latter-day Hadid, a keen piece of engineering like Calatrava's Liege or Lyon-Satolas, or anything remotely akin to Mitterand's Grand Projets. Potsdamer Platz is an abject, glaring failure of public-private partnership, and the new central station is, frankly, a manifest allround philosophical embarrassment and symbol for societal spatial ineptitude.

Which brings us to some significant mainline economic truths. Aside from Deutsche Bahn, none of Germany's top 20 blue chip companies (and less than 5 of the top 100) is headquartered in Berlin. Not a single banking or insurance institution of any significance has its seat in the German capital. To date Germany's economic wealth continues to be generated in the southern and western states (Bavaria, Baden-Würtemberg, Ruhr Area), and in the metropolitan regions in the heart of the European Megalopolis. Geographically and demographically Berlin and its environs are at best peripheral to the German and European economic "engine room".

So, coming back to the Spiegel Silicon Valley analogy (an article that I read with interest): Yes, perhaps the start-up crowd is increasingly swarming to Berlin (which is part of the increasingly visible gentrification), but this is - as I pointed out earlier - due to the potentially nebulous promise of synergy. And, of course, because IMO Berlin has become the single biggest creative sweatshop with the lowest payscales in midwestern Europe. So we will see how that pans out.

I'm sorry to say, liberally paraphrasing Kennedy, that I am not a Berliner. And arguably I will never become one, either. I came to Germany two years before the fall of the wall, and since then most of my training and practice (architecture and townplanning), as well as the interaction in my private circles (architects, designers, music and entertainment professionals), has had to do with understanding and dealing with Berlin and its significance. Certainly, my political identity was shaped tremendously by the collapse of the Eastern Bloc and reunification. In case you're wondering: I was born in Sachsen in then East Germany, and while I did not grow up in Europe, I have a childhood and teenage experience of both West and East Berlin (including negotiating the inner-German border to visit my family numerous times) before '89. Which is not to say, that while I think Berlin is in many ways overrated, it certainly is a fun place to go and see and enjoy. But so are many other places.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_d...in_Deutschland
http://www.forbes.com/global2000/lis...ll_All_Germany



p.s.: I'm sorry we didn't get together a few weeks ago, when I was in Berlin for three days. It was a company trip, so there was a lot of company program to attend, but I had a good time, taking in as much as I could of the city. I'll keep you posted of when I'll be ther next.

...

Ngeso, I agree with you on many points. Many a friday, I walk from schöneberg to prenzlauer berg, crossing potsdamer platz, the main govt buildings, etc. Most of it sucks, tho I do like the chancellory and representative offices. I've lived here for over 8.5 years, and the new buildings popping up have not exactly been inspiring. Still, the collective mix of buildings is interesting to look at, if not simply to marvel in the sheer oddity of architectural failures.

I don't think it is fair to lament the lack of blue chip companies based here. For what else other than deutchs bahn does it make sense for any of them to relocate. Frankfurt and Munich have very long traditions as financial centers. Washington D.C. is not where goldman sachs is based, either. Others make sense to regional natural resources, family history, etc.

Berlin's role has historically been the problem child city, manifesting well before its division, or even hitlers plans to redesign it. That is part of what makes up its character. I guess its kinda crappy that wages here are low, but maybe it keeps the number of cars on teh streets lower. while purchasing cars instead of flat screens instead of cars does less to support the national economy, roads are fuckign expensive. Besides, does the financial industry really produce money, or jsut siphon it off from others?

time will tell how berlins role continues. Keep in mind, that to make berlin such a fun place to visit, service and creative industries are required to produce and maintain content. At times, it feels like being in a zoo.

Have you had much involvemtn with media spree?

[Armento]

More importantly: how and why did the EU and the European Central Bank not check up on this? Or rather, why did they not back off? This business with basically the common Greek populace scandalously not paying taxes and deceiving all us upright, forthright, honest good Europeans, is a crock of bullshit. Anyone who has ever tried to get a loan from a German bank will realise that Greece must have been inspected thoroughly, that they found some "flexible" conditions, bent that sh*t into shape to meet the Maastricht criteria, and then gave it a "go!". For fucks sakes, people like Draghi were VPs at Goldmann Sachs, before they took over at ECB. Helloooo???

of course this comes as no surprise... seems that a forced cultural leveling is taking place...which i'm hating!!!

[ngeso]

[...]I don't think it is fair to lament the lack of blue chip companies based here. For what else other than deutchs bahn does it make sense for any of them to relocate. Frankfurt and Munich have very long traditions as financial centers.[...] Besides, does the financial industry really produce money, or jsut siphon it off from others?[...]

These are the Top 20 I was talking about. Automotive, energy, trade, pharmaceuticals, telecommunications, logistics. Some of the biggest prime brand global players. No banks.


1. 01!▬ 1. Volkswagen AG Wolfsburg /Automobil
2. 03!▲ 3. Daimler AG Stuttgart /Automobil
3. 02!▼ 2. E.ON Düsseldorf /Energie
4. 04!▬ 4. Siemens AG München /Mischkonzern
5. 05!▬ 5. Metro AG Düsseldorf /Handel
6. 10!▲ 10. BASF Ludwigshafen /Chemie
7. 06!▲ 6. Deutsche Telekom Bonn /Telekommunikation
8. 10!▲ 10. BMW München /Automobil
9. 08!▼ 8. Schwarz-Gruppe Neckarsulm /Handel
10. 24!▲ 24. Deutsche BP AG Bochum /Öl
11. 09!▼ 9. Rewe Group Köln /Handel
12. 13!▲ 13. Deutsche Post AG Bonn /Logistik
13. 12!▼ 12. Aldi Essen/Mülheim /Handel
14. 14!▬ 14. RWE Essen /Energie
15. 17!▲ 17. Robert Bosch GmbH Stuttgart /Autozulieferer
16. 15!▼ 15. Edeka Hamburg /Handel
17. 16!▼ 16. ThyssenKrupp Essen/Duisburg /Stahl
18. 18!▬ 18. Bayer AG Leverkusen /Pharma
19. 19!▬ 19. Deutsche Bahn Berlin /Logistik
20. 20!▬ 20. Franz Haniel & Cie. GmbH Duisburg /Mischkonzern

[ngeso]

[...]Keep in mind, that to make berlin such a fun place to visit, service and creative industries are required to produce and maintain content. At times, it feels like being in a zoo.[...]

But service and creative jobs are generally poorly remunerated in comparison to engineering, science and technology professions. And creative content is arguably an immaterial quantity. As an architect I have an engineering degree, that pays up to 50% less of what mechanical, electrical, civil and computer engineers typically get paid at the same entry, qualification and seniority level. Because it's seen as artsy, emotive, "fun". Because as a result there is huge market competition. Because general opinion is, that you drawing pictures of houses is not the same thing as constructing an engine part. Yes, there are the few star designers and show business people. But at the base you've got thousands of people slogging away in endless series of poorly paid internships.

[FK]

Yes, there are the few star designers and show business people. But at the base you've got thousands of people slogging away in endless series of poorly paid internships.

Mmmm!! Sounds suspiciously similar to the music business or the gaming industry to me... (or DJ'ing even?) you may not be alone in your creative misery I think!

But as long as you actually love what you do and find satisfaction in it, then I'd say that to some extent the money is somewhat secondary, and anyone in that position might well clearly be ahead of 90% of the rest of those with cushy jobs in corporate environments that are so dreadfully stuffy, regulated and boring that they would make attempting to have a conversation with crustaceans entertaining in comparison....??

I could be completely wrong with this.

[dag]

These are the Top 20 I was talking about. Automotive, energy, trade, pharmaceuticals, telecommunications, logistics. Some of the biggest prime brand global players. No banks.


1. 01!▬ 1. Volkswagen AG Wolfsburg /Automobil
2. 03!▲ 3. Daimler AG Stuttgart /Automobil
3. 02!▼ 2. E.ON Düsseldorf /Energie
4. 04!▬ 4. Siemens AG München /Mischkonzern
5. 05!▬ 5. Metro AG Düsseldorf /Handel
6. 10!▲ 10. BASF Ludwigshafen /Chemie
7. 06!▲ 6. Deutsche Telekom Bonn /Telekommunikation
8. 10!▲ 10. BMW München /Automobil
9. 08!▼ 8. Schwarz-Gruppe Neckarsulm /Handel
10. 24!▲ 24. Deutsche BP AG Bochum /Öl
11. 09!▼ 9. Rewe Group Köln /Handel
12. 13!▲ 13. Deutsche Post AG Bonn /Logistik
13. 12!▼ 12. Aldi Essen/Mülheim /Handel
14. 14!▬ 14. RWE Essen /Energie
15. 17!▲ 17. Robert Bosch GmbH Stuttgart /Autozulieferer
16. 15!▼ 15. Edeka Hamburg /Handel
17. 16!▼ 16. ThyssenKrupp Essen/Duisburg /Stahl
18. 18!▬ 18. Bayer AG Leverkusen /Pharma
19. 19!▬ 19. Deutsche Bahn Berlin /Logistik
20. 20!▬ 20. Franz Haniel & Cie. GmbH Duisburg /Mischkonzern

But why should any of those companies move? Besides, plenty of them do have large offices here.

berlin simply needs to find a way to get manufacturing out of its research industries. another issue here is that there are vacancies for higher educated positions, but not enough people educated enough locally and for whatever reason (maybe the salaries are too low, which only the businesses can be faulted for) not enough interest from people willing to relocate.

[dag]

But service and creative jobs are generally poorly remunerated in comparison to engineering, science and technology professions. And creative content is arguably an immaterial quantity. As an architect I have an engineering degree, that pays up to 50% less of what mechanical, electrical, civil and computer engineers typically get paid at the same entry, qualification and seniority level. Because it's seen as artsy, emotive, "fun". Because as a result there is huge market competition. Because general opinion is, that you drawing pictures of houses is not the same thing as constructing an engine part. Yes, there are the few star designers and show business people. But at the base you've got thousands of people slogging away in endless series of poorly paid internships.

while in college, i worked at a couple factories with engineers. they were fucking miserable. most of the alumni i encountered were definitely not happy with their lives.

urban living and factory jobs without long commutes are also difficult

[LAUOR G]

it's all part of the grand scheme to move to the one world currency, Amero *tsk

indeed

[ngeso]

But why should any of those companies move? Besides, plenty of them do have large offices here.

berlin simply needs to find a way to get manufacturing out of its research industries. another issue here is that there are vacancies for higher educated positions, but not enough people educated enough locally and for whatever reason (maybe the salaries are too low, which only the businesses can be faulted for) not enough interest from people willing to relocate.

I'm saying that these companies generate "hard" capital and create higher value spin-off economy. The salaries and wages are higher, meaning the spending volume is bigger. The high standard of living is self-generated, in structurally weaker regions (and that includes e.g. Saarland and the former eastern states, but also Berlin) this standard of living has to be alimented. Berlin the salaries are low, because the competition for work is so high that payscales can be lowered. People (up to now) flock to Berlin for the vibe, and accept a compromise in gains for that.

I'm sorry, I'm not an economist, so my lingo may sound stupid - there is professional terminology for what I'm trying to say, I'm sure. And obviously Audi is not going to move from Ingolstadt or BMW from Munich, but it would generally help if more production and manufacturing jobs could be established in the East (which, seen globally, is difficult to impossible outside specialist branches).

[ngeso]

while in college, i worked at a couple factories with engineers. they were fucking miserable.

Sounds like white whine.

[dag]

Sounds like white whine.

lol. I think it is more that engineers tend to be socially inept, and that new jersey sucks