I'm still going to see it.
I'm still going to see it.
Oh, I know very well how I got my name
My show with music in it- http://phthalyl.podomatic.com/ :)
I don't know how you could say it isn't connected to the Alien series. The reveal at the end clearly connects it to the franchise. Scene after scene pays homage to the original film.
Beyond the fountain of youth, I think the Corporation must have had some other motives that they never got into in the movie. Fastbender was obviously up to something, trying to insight some kind of genesis. It didn't seem like he was acting rogue when he did all of that, but rather following a predetermined plan.
The movie is pretty stunning. Yes it's rife with plot holes but they do no kill the ride at all. I can't imagine any of the other popcorn movies touching it this summer, Batman included.
Fastbender owns this movie. All his hype is warranted. Dude is a movie star.
Last edited by Sal Paradise; 06-08-2012 at 12:20 PM.
The true link is Giger's sexual concepts which were found in Alien and absent from that film's sequels. It's the men, yet again, getting raped or violated by protruding objects. You remove Giger out of the equation, expect an epic fail. Aliens was the exception because it was action packed, but it sacrificed the true nature of the Xenomorph, which subsequently aided in ruining the franchise IMO.
Hopefully there is a sequel. What needs to be explained is why are there ampules in these ships on LV-223, and eggs in the ship found on LV-426.
for me that is a question I would like to research.
Yes both Prometheus and Alien possess many similar elements, but Prometheus does not explain what is to come for the crew of The Nostromo. It is just a piece of the puzzle. The Engineer at the end of this film is not the one from Alien. Shaw's influence, plus considering both movies are set on two different planets proves that.
What we see in Alien is a more Biomechanical Xenomorph compared to Shaw and Holloway's offspring. This suggests that another ship and Engineer will eventually crash land on LV-426, and from that event, Alien will take over from this franchise.
Last edited by GROOVE VICTIM; 06-08-2012 at 01:10 PM.
I can agree with that.
Is it possible that the engineers are not all unified? Maybe the faction planning on invasion were not on the same ideological side of those that seeded our specie on earth. Not that there was any evidence of that. It occurred to me that a lot of holes in the film could be explained down the road. As they explained almost nothing almost anything could be the reason behind any of it. Kind of like a who done it mystery, where the story makes it so any one could be the murderer.
Considering the myth of Prometheus. A god is punished for giving man technology, maybe it was a rogue engineer that created humans and this was a push by his race to rectify that.
That's similar to what I've been thinking. Why was the engineer left on earth? Did he sacrifice himself for Ritual/Religeous reasons, or was this its purpose in life, to seed a planet. Some have speculated that our race was not what the Engineers had envisioned and we were to be wiped from the earth. My thinking was that the ship would have dropped eggs on the planet and let hell all break loose. This black GOO is like the Midichloreans of Star Wars. It completely sparks debate on the purpose of this Species and has side-tracked my thoughts about everything we've seen before its introduction to the storyline.
Im wondering if what the Engineers were running from was that of an infected Engineer, something unknown to us at the moment, for example a Xenomorph with biomechanical elements, but with no "human" DNA, that of which is the case of the Alien films.
A lot of speculation from some online re: all the religious symbolism
the constant theme of faith being simply whatever you choose to believe
the fact that the dead alien carbon dated to "a little over 2000 years ago" (crucifixion) and that maybe Jesus' death was the final "fall of man" last straw type shit that compelled them to destroy us
then there's the whole virgin birth thing
and the theme of you need to destroy before you create
the wrath of the god/creator once the creation desires/achieves god-like knowledge (adam & eve and the tree of knowledge / mankind being finally able to create artificial life)
geezus that Reddit thread is dense. Read the first bit.
All of the focus as to why David singled out Hathaway I think misses the point in that reddit thread. I think it was all about her getting pregnant. As some one in that thread stated David seemed to be able to read the hieroglyphics. The hieroglyphics clearly had a depiction of an Alien Queen. I think he was trying to set that in motion by impregnating Shaw. He seemed to be following a script with her when he discovered she was pregnant. He did not seemed surprised at all by any of it.
My thinking was that Weyland wanted David to "try harder" meaning, do what ever it takes to test this Black stuff we've discovered. I don't thing getting Shaw pregnant was the intent, but to give a willing crew member a spiked drink, Halloway being the ideal candidate after the conversation by the pool table. Shaw getting pregnant IMO was just supplemental. Remember that Vickers was not clued in on her fathers intentions. Only David knew what was going in and Halloway was enough of a specimen to take home in stasis, but Holloway asked to be killed. David's curiosity got the ball rolling about Shaw becoming pregnant and he probably wanted to understand how it was possible.
If you recall, after Shaw had the C Section, and was on her way to find the rest of the crew, she finds the Medical Crew, Dsvid, and Peter Weyland together. I think they were all oblivious to that fact that Shaw gave birth, and did not know or understand the potential of her offspring. This is why I say Yutani Corporation will play a huge role in regards to the Bio-Weapons aspect of the Story. The Weyland Corporation aspect of the story seems to be more about creating and maintaining life, artificial intelligence, and similar things of that nature. All speculation of course, but when Yutani kicks in, it's all about the Xenomorph.
Last edited by GROOVE VICTIM; 06-08-2012 at 02:21 PM.
Another possibility, (really since they didn't explain anything you could conceive of anything) is that David was being controlled by the engineers. He is just a piece of technology and they are more technologically advanced. Granted absolutely no evidence pointing to this in the movie.
David is just a puppet. I'm just waiting on him to snap like Ash did in Alien. Honestly I did think that David would become the Engineer we see sitting in the pilots chair.
You guys have done a great job writing the movie for the filmmakers.
Dig it - I think it was concise, with a strong plot with nary a gaping hole. Fanboys and fanatics who were expecting an Alien prequel are all up in arms, but it came off as nothing to do with Alien or any of those ridiculous offshoots that came after. Yo - its sacrilege for a scifi head to say, but Aliens - ala James Cameron - is a pure action film that, taken in the entire framework, stands on its own without actually having much to do with driving the story. That's how Alien 3 could be so divergent and waaaaay off (I dug it as well, but for different reasons). Then you have the Alien v. Predator monstrosities. Those are the offspring of James Cameron. Ridley Scott made a true prequel to his film Alien, and AGAIN it wasn't about alien beings so much as the ways in which humans aren't able to trust each other and how that distrust extends down to our creations. Bishop was unique as a creation of the human race, who just so happened to be honest in choice and intent, despite the habitual (and perhaps policy driven) deception of his creators. Then in Aliens 3, we meet Bishop's creator and we're back to the lies and deceit and duplicity.
Alien was never about monsters and xenomorphs. It was about taking a handful of folks, sealing them in a metal box, turning an inhuman threat loose and then watch how humans fail each other. In the end, it was Ripley and her cat. Then it was Ripley, Newt and an android. Then it was just Ripley and a bunch of convicts who were abandoned to a desolate rock. Then it was just Ripley's 5th generation clone and an android who wanted the rights of a human (Alien Ressurection).
PROMETHEUS was about how all that began and the flimsy reasons Weyland set all that in motion. In backtracking, Ridley Scott managed to corral all the divergent versions that followed Alien. It was taut, concise, obvious and finally returned the subject matter to the less straightforward realm of human nature. If there were plot holes, they existed only in the minds of folks who actually think the Predators universe belonged in the same spacetime as the Xenomorphs.
They don't know shit.
Last edited by Daniel, Grand Duke of Stony Island; 06-08-2012 at 07:57 PM.
Dude, don't get me started on those thinking Predators have a part in this Universe, lol. Great read by the way.
“What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.” Ralph Waldo Emerson
"Nigga please." Ralph Waldo "Petey" Greene
2006 & 2012 DHP Fantasy Football Champion
“What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.” Ralph Waldo Emerson
"Nigga please." Ralph Waldo "Petey" Greene
2006 & 2012 DHP Fantasy Football Champion
Huey, your experience with the first two films aids in my theory that Ridley Scott wants bring the tone of the story back to its original state. Bringing back H.R. Giger, and if you noticed how early Mr. Giger's name is listed in the closing credits, was the icing on the cake. David Fincher tried to bring back this futile and cerebral tone with Alien3 but Fox executives wanted Blockbuster money,as a result of what Cameron did with Aliens, and subsequently Cameron's contribution led to the destruction of the Franchise IMO.
luvd it, fassbender has been on a role lately, shame, dangerous method, xmen, crushed it here, also, lisbeth was awesome as elizabeth
This got posted on Reddit. Guy that posted it said he found it some where on the internet, he didn't write it. Pretty great analysis even if you don't agree with it 100%. It makes no attempt at filling in all the plot holes. It's long so put your Collin Powell reading glasses on.
This post goes way in depth to Prometheus and explains some of the deeper themes of the film as well as some stuff I completely overlooked while watching the film.
NOTE: I did NOT write this post, I just found it on the web.
Prometheus contains such a huge amount of mythic resonance that it effectively obscures a more conventional plot. I'd like to draw your attention to the use of motifs and callbacks in the film that not only enrich it, but offer possible hints as to what was going on in otherwise confusing scenes.
Let's begin with the eponymous titan himself, Prometheus. He was a wise and benevolent entity who created mankind in the first place, forming the first humans from clay. The Gods were more or less okay with that, until Prometheus gave them fire. This was a big no-no, as fire was supposed to be the exclusive property of the Gods. As punishment, Prometheus was chained to a rock and condemned to have his liver ripped out and eaten every day by an eagle. (His liver magically grew back, in case you were wondering.)
Fix that image in your mind, please: the giver of life, with his abdomen torn open. We'll be coming back to it many times in the course of this article.
The ethos of the titan Prometheus is one of willing and necessary sacrifice for life's sake. That's a pattern we see replicated throughout the ancient world. J G Frazer wrote his lengthy anthropological study, The Golden Bough, around the idea of the Dying God - a lifegiver who voluntarily dies for the sake of the people. It was incumbent upon the King to die at the right and proper time, because that was what heaven demanded, and fertility would not ensue if he did not do his royal duty of dying.
Now, consider the opening sequence of Prometheus. We fly over a spectacular vista, which may or may not be primordial Earth. According to Ridley Scott, it doesn't matter. A lone Engineer at the top of a waterfall goes through a strange ritual, drinking from a cup of black goo that causes his body to disintegrate into the building blocks of life. We see the fragments of his body falling into the river, twirling and spiralling into DNA helices.
Ridley Scott has this to say about the scene: 'That could be a planet anywhere. All he’s doing is acting as a gardener in space. And the plant life, in fact, is the disintegration of himself. If you parallel that idea with other sacrificial elements in history – which are clearly illustrated with the Mayans and the Incas – he would live for one year as a prince, and at the end of that year, he would be taken and donated to the gods in hopes of improving what might happen next year, be it with crops or weather, etcetera.'
Can we find a God in human history who creates plant life through his own death, and who is associated with a river? It's not difficult to find several, but the most obvious candidate is Osiris, the epitome of all the Frazerian 'Dying Gods'.
And we wouldn't be amiss in seeing the first of the movie's many Christian allegories in this scene, either. The Engineer removes his cloak before the ceremony, and hesitates before drinking the cupful of genetic solvent; he may well have been thinking 'If it be Thy will, let this cup pass from me.'
So, we know something about the Engineers, a founding principle laid down in the very first scene: acceptance of death, up to and including self-sacrifice, is right and proper in the creation of life. Prometheus, Osiris, John Barleycorn, and of course the Jesus of Christianity are all supposed to embody this same principle. It is held up as one of the most enduring human concepts of what it means to be 'good'.
Seen in this light, the perplexing obscurity of the rest of the film yields to an examination of the interwoven themes of sacrifice, creation, and preservation of life. We also discover, through hints, exactly what the nature of the clash between the Engineers and humanity entailed.
The crew of the Prometheus discover an ancient chamber, presided over by a brooding solemn face, in which urns of the same black substance are kept. A mural on the wall presents an image which, if you did as I asked earlier on, you will recognise instantly: the lifegiver with his abdomen torn open. Go and look at it here to refresh your memory. Note the serenity on the Engineer's face here.
And there's another mural there, one which shows a familiar xenomorph-like figure. This is the Destroyer who mirrors the Creator, I think - the avatar of supremely selfish life, devouring and destroying others purely to preserve itself. As Ash puts it: 'a survivor, unclouded by conscience, remorse or delusions of morality.'
Through Shaw and Holloway's investigations, we learn that the Engineers not only created human life, they supervised our development. (How else are we to explain the numerous images of Engineers in primitive art, complete with star diagram showing us the way to find them?) We have to assume, then, that for a good few hundred thousand years, they were pretty happy with us. They could have destroyed us at any time, but instead, they effectively invited us over; the big pointy finger seems to be saying 'Hey, guys, when you're grown up enough to develop space travel, come see us.' Until something changed, something which not only messed up our relationship with them but caused their installation on LV-223 to be almost entirely wiped out.
From the Engineers' perspective, so long as humans retained that notion of self-sacrifice as central, we weren't entirely beyond redemption. But we went and screwed it all up, and the film hints at when, if not why: the Engineers at the base died two thousand years ago. That suggests that the event that turned them against us and led to the huge piles of dead Engineers lying about was one and the same event. We did something very, very bad, and somehow the consequences of that dreadful act accompanied the Engineers back to LV-223 and massacred them.
If you have uneasy suspicions about what 'a bad thing approximately 2,000 years ago' might be, then let me reassure you that you are right. An astonishing excerpt from the Movies.com interview with Ridley Scott:
Movies.com: We had heard it was scripted that the Engineers were targeting our planet for destruction because we had crucified one of their representatives, and that Jesus Christ might have been an alien. Was that ever considered?
Ridley Scott: We definitely did, and then we thought it was a little too on the nose. But if you look at it as an “our children are misbehaving down there” scenario, there are moments where it looks like we’ve gone out of control, running around with armor and skirts, which of course would be the Roman Empire. And they were given a long run. A thousand years before their disintegration actually started to happen. And you can say, "Let's send down one more of our emissaries to see if he can stop it." Guess what? They crucified him.
Yeah. The reason the Engineers don't like us any more is that they made us a Space Jesus, and we broke him. Reader, that's not me pulling wild ideas out of my arse. That's RIDLEY SCOTT.
So, imagine poor crucified Jesus, a fresh spear wound in his side. Oh, hey, there's the 'lifegiver with his abdomen torn open' motif again. That's three times now: Prometheus, Engineer mural, Jesus Christ. And I don't think I have to mention the 'sacrifice in the interest of giving life' bit again, do I? Everyone on the same page? Good.
So how did our (in the context of the film) terrible murderous act of crucifixion end up wiping out all but one of the Engineers back on LV-223? Presumably through the black slime, which evidently models its behaviour on the user's mental state. Create unselfishly, accepting self-destruction as the cost, and the black stuff engenders fertile life. But expose the potent black slimy stuff to the thoughts and emotions of flawed humanity, and 'the sleep of reason produces monsters'. We never see the threat that the Engineers were fleeing from, we never see them killed other than accidentally (decapitation by door), and we see no remaining trace of whatever killed them. Either it left a long time ago, or it reverted to inert black slime, waiting for a human mind to reactivate it.
The black slime reacts to the nature and intent of the being that wields it, and the humans in the film didn't even know that they WERE wielding it. That's why it remained completely inert in David's presence, and why he needed a human proxy in order to use the stuff to create anything. The black goo could read no emotion or intent from him, because he was an android.
Shaw's comment when the urn chamber is entered - 'we've changed the atmosphere in the room' - is deceptively informative. The psychic atmosphere has changed, because humans - tainted, Space Jesus-killing humans - are present. The slime begins to engender new life, drawing not from a self-sacrificing Engineer but from human hunger for knowledge, for more life, for more everything. Little wonder, then, that it takes serpent-like form. The symbolism of a corrupting serpent, turning men into beasts, is pretty unmistakeable.
Refusal to accept death is anathema to the Engineers. Right from the first scene, we learned their code of willing self-sacrifice in accord with a greater purpose. When the severed Engineer head is temporarily brought back to life, its expression registers horror and disgust. Cinemagoers are confused when the head explodes, because it's not clear why it should have done so. Perhaps the Engineer wanted to die again, to undo the tainted human agenda of new life without sacrifice.
But some humans do act in ways the Engineers might have grudgingly admired. Take Holloway, Shaw's lover, who impregnates her barren womb with his black slime riddled semen before realising he is being transformed into something Other. Unlike the hapless geologist and botanist left behind in the chamber, who only want to stay alive, Holloway willingly embraces death. He all but invites Meredith Vickers to kill him, and it's surely significant that she does so using fire, the other gift Prometheus gave to man besides his life.
The 'Caesarean' scene is central to the film's themes of creation, sacrifice, and giving life. Shaw has discovered she's pregnant with something non-human and sets the autodoc to slice it out of her. She lies there screaming, a gaping wound in her stomach, while her tentacled alien child thrashes and squeals in the clamp above her and OH HEY IT'S THE LIFEGIVER WITH HER ABDOMEN TORN OPEN. How many times has that image come up now? Four, I make it. (We're not done yet.)
And she doesn't kill it. And she calls the procedure a 'caesarean' instead of an 'abortion'.
(I'm not even going to begin to explore the pro-choice versus forced birth implications of that scene. I don't think they're clear, and I'm not entirely comfortable doing so. Let's just say that her unwanted offspring turning out to be her salvation is possibly problematic from a feminist standpoint and leave it there for now.)
Here's where the Christian allegories really come through. The day of this strange birth just happens to be Christmas Day. And this is a 'virgin birth' of sorts, although a dark and twisted one, because Shaw couldn't possibly be pregnant. And Shaw's the crucifix-wearing Christian of the crew. We may well ask, echoing Yeats: what rough beast, its hour come round at last, slouches towards LV-223 to be born?
Consider the scene where David tells Shaw that she's pregnant, and tell me that's not a riff on the Annunciation. The calm, graciously angelic android delivering the news, the pious mother who insists she can't possibly be pregnant, the wry declaration that it's no ordinary child... yeah, we've seen this before.
'And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.'
A barren woman called Elizabeth, made pregnant by 'God'? Subtle, Ridley.
Anyway. If it weren't already clear enough that the central theme of the film is 'I suffer and die so that others may live' versus 'you suffer and die so that I may live' writ extremely large, Meredith Vickers helpfully spells it out:
'A king has his reign, and then he dies. It's inevitable.'
Vickers is not just speaking out of personal frustration here, though that's obviously one level of it. She wants her father out of the way, so she can finally come in to her inheritance. It's insult enough that Weyland describes the android David as 'the closest thing I have to a son', as if only a male heir was of any worth; his obstinate refusal to accept death is a slap in her face.
Weyland, preserved by his wealth and the technology it can buy, has lived far, far longer than his rightful time. A ghoulish, wizened creature who looks neither old nor young, he reminds me of Slough Feg, the decaying tyrant from the Slaine series in British comic 2000AD. In Slaine, an ancient (and by now familiar to you, dear reader, or so I would hope) Celtic law decrees that the King has to be ritually and willingly sacrificed at the end of his appointed time, for the good of the land and the people. Slough Feg refused to die, and became a rotting horror, the embodiment of evil.
The image of the sorcerer who refuses to accept rightful death is fundamental: it even forms a part of some occult philosophy. In Crowley's system, the magician who refuses to accept the bitter cup of Babalon and undergo dissolution of his individual ego in the Great Sea (remember that opening scene?) becomes an ossified, corrupted entity called a 'Black Brother' who can create no new life, and lives on as a sterile, emasculated husk.
With all this in mind, we can better understand the climactic scene in which the withered Weyland confronts the last surviving Engineer. See it from the Engineer's perspective. Two thousand years ago, humanity not only murdered the Engineers' emissary, it infected the Engineers' life-creating fluid with its own tainted selfish nature, creating monsters. And now, after so long, here humanity is, presumptuously accepting a long-overdue invitation, and even reawakening (and corrupting all over again) the life fluid.
And who has humanity chosen to represent them? A self-centred, self-satisfied narcissist who revels in his own artificially extended life, who speaks through the medium of a merely mechanical offspring. Humanity couldn't have chosen a worse ambassador.
It's hardly surprising that the Engineer reacts with contempt and disgust, ripping David's head off and battering Weyland to death with it. The subtext is bitter and ironic: you caused us to die at the hands of our own creation, so I am going to kill you with YOUR own creation, albeit in a crude and bludgeoning way.
The only way to save humanity is through self-sacrifice, and this is exactly what the captain (and his two oddly complacent co-pilots) opt to do. They crash the Prometheus into the Engineer's ship, giving up their lives in order to save others. Their willing self-sacrifice stands alongside Holloway's and the Engineer's from the opening sequence; by now, the film has racked up no less than five self-sacrificing gestures (six if we consider the exploding Engineer head).
Meredith Vickers, of course, has no interest in self-sacrifice. Like her father, she wants to keep herself alive, and so she ejects and lands on the planet's surface. With the surviving cast now down to Vickers and Shaw, we witness Vickers's rather silly death as the Engineer ship rolls over and crushes her, due to a sudden inability on her part to run sideways. Perhaps that's the point; perhaps the film is saying her view is blinkered, and ultimately that kills her. But I doubt it. Sometimes a daft death is just a daft death.
Finally, in the squidgy ending scenes of the film, the wrathful Engineer conveniently meets its death at the tentacles of Shaw's alien child, now somehow grown huge. But it's not just a death; there's obscene life being created here, too. The (in the Engineers' eyes) horrific human impulse to sacrifice others in order to survive has taken on flesh. The Engineer's body bursts open - blah blah lifegiver blah blah abdomen ripped apart hey we're up to five now - and the proto-Alien that emerges is the very image of the creature from the mural.
On the face of it, it seems absurd to suggest that the genesis of the Alien xenomorph ultimately lies in the grotesque human act of crucifying the Space Jockeys' emissary to Israel in four B.C., but that's what Ridley Scott proposes. It seems equally insane to propose that Prometheus is fundamentally about the clash between acceptance of death as a condition of creating/sustaining life versus clinging on to life at the expense of others, but the repeated, insistent use of motifs and themes bears this out.
As a closing point, let me draw your attention to a very different strand of symbolism that runs through Prometheus: the British science fiction show Doctor Who. In the 1970s episode 'The Daemons', an ancient mound is opened up, leading to an encounter with a gigantic being who proves to be an alien responsible for having guided mankind's development, and who now views mankind as a failed experiment that must be destroyed. The Engineers are seen tootling on flutes, in exactly the same way that the second Doctor does. The Third Doctor had an companion whose name was Liz Shaw, the same name as the protagonist of Prometheus. As with anything else in the film, it could all be coincidental; but knowing Ridley Scott, it doesn't seem very likely.