Mix removed from SoundCloud for copyright infringement?

[GROOVE VICTIM]

Honestly Ray, I agree with you 100 PERCENT, and I appreciate the props. It is a Fucked up situation, but my first love is Music, DJing or I should really say "Mixing" was secondary. When the opportunity arrived at my door to finally put my music skill to the test and showcase my talent, I thought long and hard about what I was getting myself into. I asked questions, researched, and discovered that like in any relationship, I had to compromise. The rules, laws, regulations were all laid out in front of me and I actually sent Doug Smith an email about the reality with regards to Sampling, and how house Labels handled or simply ignored the issue at hand.

By the time I put out my second EP on Cyberjamz, that sense of accomplishemt fell over me and I was relaxed and content, considering all the other BS going on in my personal life at the time, yea like many of us Life Kicked me in the ass for a few years. By the third and 4th EP, the "Shit Got Real" Ghost kicked in and this is where I faced the reality of losing control of one's love and work. My tracks found on torrents, blogs, Russian Websites in a matter of hours. Prince, Metallica, the owners of the Beatles Catalogue, and Peven Everett cannot keep track of all of their product on their own no matter how dedicated they are to minimizing the damage. It is a digital virus, plain and simple.

So have I developed a distaste for mixing, yes, I will admit that, I haven't made a mix since 2009, I've completely lost interest in the craft, I'm just not interested. My love for creating music has taken over. I know the ups and downs and risks of putting my work out there for all to hear. You just gotta man-up and take the hits and jabs, it's nothing new.

Are there other alternatives of compensation, yes, and that's where Licensing of your work can become a thriving steam of income for someone who wants to put in the work, but there are pitfalls to that alternative as well. Cutting out the middle-man is another means, which is why I bought up the Louis C.K. situation and if you read the article, you can see the possibilities.

I am by no means wanting to make enemies or point fingers here, I'm just stating information that is available out there, and yea it may not be to one's liking, but that's the way it is.

[GROOVE VICTIM]

Ray, most artists make money through Performances, licensing deals, and product promotions. That 99 Cents, or $9.99 is divided up and distributed to various components.

[GROOVE VICTIM]

http://www.prsformusic.com/users/bus...dalicence.aspx

This site has a great explanation of what is required, plus exemptions in regards to playing Music at a public or private function.

[liL Ray]

Honestly Ray, I agree with you 100 PERCENT, and I appreciate the props. It is a Fucked up situation, but my first love is Music, DJing or I should really say "Mixing" was secondary. When the opportunity arrived at my door to finally put my music skill to the test and showcase my talent, I thought long and hard about what I was getting myself into. I asked questions, researched, and discovered that like in any relationship, I had to compromise. The rules, laws, regulations were all laid out in front of me and I actually sent Doug Smith an email about the reality with regards to Sampling, and how house Labels handled or simply ignored the issue at hand.

By the time I put out my second EP on Cyberjamz, that sense of accomplishemt fell over me and I was relaxed and content, considering all the other BS going on in my personal life at the time, yea like many of us Life Kicked me in the ass for a few years. By the third and 4th EP, the "Shit Got Real" Ghost kicked in and this is where I faced the reality of losing control of one's love and work. My tracks found on torrents, blogs, Russian Websites in a matter of hours. Prince, Metallica, the owners of the Beatles Catalogue, and Peven Everett cannot keep track of all of their product on their own no matter how dedicated they are to minimizing the damage. It is a digital virus, plain and simple.

So have I developed a distaste for mixing, yes, I will admit that, I haven't made a mix since 2009, I've completely lost interest in the craft, I'm just not interested. My love for creating music has taken over. I know the ups and downs and risks of putting my work out there for all to hear. You just gotta man-up and take the hits and jabs, it's nothing new.

Are there other alternatives of compensation, yes, and that's where Licensing of your work can become a thriving steam of income for someone who wants to put in the work, but there are pitfalls to that alternative as well. Cutting out the middle-man is another means, which is why I bought up the Louis C.K. situation and if you read the article, you can see the possibilities.

I am by no means wanting to make enemies or point fingers here, I'm just stating information that is available out there, and yea it may not be to one's liking, but that's the way it is.

mad respect to you for this answer...I still want to hear Groove Victim back behind the TTs/CDRs/etc...

[blackwax]

Look what you started Dan lol see you in September?

[liL Ray]

Ray, most artists make money through Performances, licensing deals, and product promotions.

That being said, and as Dennis F said here many months ago, would you have to agree that the actual track would really be your business card/marketing tool/ad campaign, and as with any business card/marketing tool/ad campaign you would want this in front of as many people as possible?

To me, it seems many artist, especially house music artist (I can only speak on the genre I know) are just too damn lazy and expect to hit it big with just the track (hell, just one track). I believe this is what is driving Peven with this $150 licensing fee nonsense.

a thought..
you pay $2.99/$1.99 cents for the Peven download, and then you have to turn around and payoff a $150 for the usage...what dah fuck is wrong with this picture?

[GROOVE VICTIM]

Very valid points Ray, and this is what an "Independent" artist has to face. Ya know, it's like that Nascar Driver driving a car with no stickers on it, no corporate backing whatsoever. The driver wins two or three races, and the phone rings off the hook. So yea, that one "Hit" is your Business card. It happened to me with my Second EP. Sammy and I had a few offerings for Licensing, most fell through but when Jeremy, "My Love is Underground", begged and begged us to license my work and put it on Vinyl, 500 eps sold like Hotcakes. Now for a Small time knucklehead like myself, i was beyond content. I actually saw this same EP go up for sale for 30 bucks on Disgogs.com . But one has to stay humbled and maintain a level of sanity for just ONE EP.

Now the whole 99 cent 1.99, 2.99, we just gotta call up Steve Jobs on that one, because that seems to be the sweet spot for pricing music on various online stores.

But you are correct Ray, I also believe that artists can become complacent and expect the world to stop what they are doing and listen to your product without you putting forth any type of effort. I was one of them, and I learned my lesson.

Now, again I don't know all the ins and outs of the Peven situation, I'm currently reading some of his comments on his facebook page, (never subscribed to his page), and he is bringing up the same points I've made, subsequently there are some supporters of his comments, but where the 150 License Charge comes from, well, from my personal experience, with regards to licensing my tracks to another label, Sammy and I set a price, but if push comes to shove, we can request a substantial fee, depending on how ideal the situation may be. If someone is really wanting to have your product as part of their enterprise, then you go for it, by any means necessary.

I will read up on the Peven issue where I may be able to come to some type of understanding as to why he chose this route.

[Cordell]

Well it could come down to this.. if the artist wants to get paid for everytime their song is played in public, then he should sell his work for the minimum of $150 per track to protect themselves in case of the music being played out to an audience. Then that would eliminate any question of people breaking the law.

[Dan Jolly]

Look what you started Dan lol see you in September?

Sadly not Steve, have a holiday planned with some friends in September. I was gonna do both but I just did a 'Best Of' Peven Everet mix and it cost me $1500 so money's a bit tight Lol.

Been interesting reading the replies. I understand why Peven is doing what he's doing, it's his material, hard work/talent and he wants to get back what he's put in. I just think he's going about it the wrong way.

I'm no globe trotting DJ earning four-figure sums at the weekend, I don't sell my mixes or use his music for any financial gain. I'm just a regular guy who's passion is house music and I enjoy sharing that feeling with others. I cannot afford $150 per track, I doubt there are many that can. The next time I record a mix, play out at a bar or throw a party, I'm going to have to be careful I don't play a Peven track for fear of receiving another email informing me I've infringed copyright.

You as a business have given me no alternative routes to take and because of this, I have no other option than to stop buying your music. This means I won't hear your new music, the people who visit the bars I play at won't, the people who download my Podcasts won't. You haven't got the $150 you want and in the process you've lost a customer.

I fail to see how this is productive and of benefit to you. Either work out a plan B for regular jocks who do this 'thing' for the love, not for the bucks. Or risk losing even more fans.

I'd be interested to know if some of the bigger names have paid for their licenses? Would you go after the big dogs if they didn't have their licenses? "Sorry to interrupt your DJ set Mr. Knuckles but have you got a license to play that song?"

[JMJ]

That being said, and as Dennis F said here many months ago, would you have to agree that the actual track would really be your business card/marketing tool/ad campaign, and as with any business card/marketing tool/ad campaign you would want this in front of as many people as possible?

To me, it seems many artist, especially house music artist (I can only speak on the genre I know) are just too damn lazy and expect to hit it big with just the track (hell, just one track). I believe this is what is driving Peven with this $150 licensing fee nonsense.

a thought..
you pay $2.99/$1.99 cents for the Peven download, and then you have to turn around and payoff a $150 for the usage...what dah fuck is wrong with this picture?

See, Peven should just charge $152.99 per download and stop this other nonsense......JMJ

[LarsLB]

Another variable to add to this Soundcloud discussion is that certain digital distributors try to actively protect their labels property. When they get involved the copyrighted tracks are usually automatically discovered (esp. if you start a mix with the tune in question) and your mix won't even be made available ..
The notice you'll receive will actually mention the label (since they own the tunes) and not the distributor .. therefore many times the labels will be blamed and hated on since people don't know what's really going on ..

I believe once the mixes are up and active, Soundcloud doesn't scan / analyze anymore and if you actually do receive a take down notice, it must have actively been sought after by the label and / or artist ..
This also allows the label / artist to be selective and leave those mixes active which he thinks would represent them / him and actually help w/ the exposure argument thrown around in this discussion ..

a whole other question would be ..
did you give the artist and label credit in your description ie. by posting a tracklist?
otherwise you'd just promote yourself by just playing a song without anyone knowing what it is = it won't help anyone but you ..

lb.

[AD]

i torrent his shit so he can go suck it.

[Chuck P]

i torrent his shit so he can go suck it.

This..........I think

[GROOVE VICTIM]

After reading through the "Peven" thread, it's pretty much a continuation of what's being discussed in this thread.

48-track studios with live bands, a producer, artists, label owners, distributors, marketing, Record Deals, Advances, copyright, publishing, yada, yada, and a yada...............in this day and age this has dwindled down to 24-track virtual studios on a Laptop and a USB Keyboard, self-produced, self-published, self-promoted.

Peven presented a business model which in a traditional sense involves MILLIONS, down to an individualized intimate form which involves Hundreds.

This is nothing new here.

It was rumored that 20th Century Fox paid Michael Biehn more than the salary he made from Aliens (as Hicks) to have his picture shown in Alien3. This is how shit goes down in the entertainment business. IMO you guys just saw the tip of the iceberg.

[liL Ray]

did you give the artist and label credit in your description ie. by posting a tracklist?
otherwise you'd just promote yourself by just playing a song without anyone knowing what it is = it won't help anyone but you ..

lb.

I thought that if you tracklist, this is an easy way for these record companies to sue you for use...I purposely do not do tracklisting for this reason.

[Chuck P]

We recently discussed property rights in an IT business class I had to take, one of the questions that were raised was "at what point does the owner/creator of a product, good, service etc relinquish some level of property rights to their respective item"

If you create music for the purpose of sale, once the medium is PURCHASED, you should have a right to use the medium in a way that is not attempting to profit from the work of the artist, creating a dance music mix does not infringe on the property rights of the artist IMO............

unfortunately, the law does not agree with this notion......

but what I did find through research is that it is very difficult for an artist to win any damages against someone who has not replicated or attempted to resale or illegally utilize the medium without permission......

[GROOVE VICTIM]

I think it's the Application of these laws. We are dealing with two points in time. 25 years ago, this would probably be a non-issue, because, let's face it, were there "DJ In a Box" systems around back in the 60s, 70s, and 80s, no.

DJs at a Block Party on the South Side of Chicago, and in the Bronx, on any given street corner, were you being watched by the RIAA, no. (This is where something like Lil Ray's Club House Jamboree may be exempt, as long as the parties involved are doing this as a non-profit event).



Record Companies did not have to deal with Itunes, Traxsource, Beatport, Youtube, Jim n dem down the street, etc etc.

With the internet, there's a footprint, whether it be an email, a comment on this page or any website, your IP address, your MAC Address, your ISPs cooperation with the authorities to give up information.

Maybe some of the older heads can chime in with regards to the old Block Parties of back in the day, but I would venture to guess that those parties and the individuals who put them together did not compensate any artist, label, songwriter, or publisher for their work. I don't know, correct me if I'm wrong.

Now with these IP/Copyright, Fair Use acts and laws floating around these days, who knows how this would all pan out. I'm still trying to figure out where Peven came up with $150 myself, for it appears to be a bit out of range, not for DJs wanting to play his music, but uhh he ain't write a "Call me Maybe" equivalent yet.

[AK]

I have actually never met PE (that I can recall), but I wish that he was thinking bigger and was around people who were thinking bigger. He is very talented and there is nothing wrong with him wanting to "get paid." But this is not the way for him to "get paid." Indeed, I'm fairly certain that it will be counter-productive to that effort. I hope he figures out a way to step it up before it's too late.

[LEONARD REMIX RROY]

I don't play any of his material and still play GREAT sets.

You don't need his material to play a great set!!!

One monkey don't stop no show, and as time goes on he will only see that he's shooting himself in the foot.

EDIT: I deleted the video because that was just flat out mean!

[DaBownca]

I don't play any of his material and still play GREAT sets.

You don't need his material to play a great set!!!

One monkey don't stop no show, but....they do make for great youtube videos

http://youtu.be/Kh6AjdpViuI

sweeeeet

[the crackhouse]

i torrent his shit so he can go suck it.

Yes. But do you share it?

Idance

[LarsLB]

I thought that if you tracklist, this is an easy way for these record companies to sue you for use...I purposely do not do tracklisting for this reason.

sounds logical .. since your playlist will most likely show up in people's google alerts
but has it happened?

I'm a strong believer in playlists since no one really knows what they're listening to and therefore can't become a fan of an artists or label ..

you know.. the same way radio hosts used to announce what you're listening to

lb.

[Sal Paradise]

sounds logical .. since your playlist will most likely show up in people's google alerts
but has it happened?

I'm a strong believer in playlists since no one really knows what they're listening to and therefore can't become a fan of an artists or label ..

you know.. the same way radio hosts used to announce what you're listening to

lb.

I'm a strong believer in playlists to and I barely ever post mixes on Soundcloud. But I wouldn't post them on SoundCloud for this reason. Unfortunately they've created this precedent.

[Tee Dubb]

sounds logical .. since your playlist will most likely show up in people's google alerts
but has it happened?

I'm a strong believer in playlists since no one really knows what they're listening to and therefore can't become a fan of an artists or label ..

you know.. the same way radio hosts used to announce what you're listening to

lb.

yeah but deep underground house is different. Late night radio never announced what they were playing. I had to record it on cassette and play it through my walkman in the record stores.
House always had that mystique, and I never had a problem with it. I don't do tracklistings either, but if someone reaches out for an id they will not be ignored

[LarsLB]

yeah but deep underground house is different. Late night radio never announced what they were playing. I had to record it on cassette and play it through my walkman in the record stores.
House always had that mystique, and I never had a problem with it. I don't do tracklistings either, but if someone reaches out for an id they will not be ignored

but what stores can you go to now? and if the track is digi only they may not have any idea at all what it could be :(