Olympics: Our guys vs theirs

[lvdphse]

I could be off completely on this, if so please educate. Some of our competitors have managed to to give up a large chunk of their lives perfecting their given talent despite coming from meager backgrounds and everyday struggles one wouldn't think an "Olympian" would go through.

I get the impression competitors from other countries (China, Russia even Mexico) typically come from the top of the so called gene pool of their country. No doubt they catching it bad in training lol, probably from a more disciplined way than us. But would your "average" kid from these other countries be given the remote opportunity to compete at this level or is this saved for the "higher class"?

I was checking the 2 cats from Mexico doing sync diving and asking myself whats the odds a youngsta from Juarez that didn't get caught up being a runner for a cartel would have a chance of taking his dream this far.

[Martin Red]

What is the difference between American athletes and athletes from anywhere in the world. They are the best in their country, by winning, so what is the difference ?

Funding ? do American athletes get more funding per gold medal than other countries ?

[ngeso]

I could be off completely on this, if so please educate. Some of "our" competitors have managedto to give up a large chunk of "their" lives perfecting their given talent despite coming from meager backgrounds and everyday struggles one wouldn't think an "Olympian" would go through.

I get the impression competitors from other countries (China, Russia "even" Mexico) typically come from the top of the so called gene pool of "their" country. No doubt they catching it bad in training lol, probably from a more disciplined way than us. But would your "average" kid from these other countries be given the remote opportunity to compete at this levelor is this saved for the "higher class"?

I was checking the 2 cats from Mexico.............doing sync diving ....................................and asking myself whats the odds .................a youngsta from Juarez that didn't get caught up being a runner for a cartel would have a chance of taking his dream this far.

[the crackhouse]

I could be off completely on this, if so please educate. Some of our competitors have managed to to give up a large chunk of their lives perfecting their given talent despite coming from meager backgrounds and everyday struggles one wouldn't think an "Olympian" would go through.

I get the impression competitors from other countries (China, Russia even Mexico) typically come from the top of the so called gene pool of their country. No doubt they catching it bad in training lol, probably from a more disciplined way than us. But would your "average" kid from these other countries be given the remote opportunity to compete at this level or is this saved for the "higher class"?

I was checking the 2 cats from Mexico doing sync diving and asking myself whats the odds a youngsta from Juarez that didn't get caught up being a runner for a cartel would have a chance of taking his dream this far.

Is it real that any song containing "I love america" in its title or lyrics will sell at least a million copies?

Idance

[lvdphse]

Is it real that any song containing "I love america" in its title or lyrics will sell at least a million copies?

Idance

Martin,Ngeso with all sincerity I think you misinterpreted what I said. My apologies for not asking in a way that clearly defined what I was getting at. Damn straight they all work hard be it from US, Russia or any other repped country.

Not speaking on funding either but more of how the athlete is groomed for this in other countries, regardless of money, class, status etc. I know the same goes on here as well but opportunities are still possible for those that seemingly have no hope or chance of competing.

Maybe I just missed it but they had little background stories on the gymnasts from the Bronx and his teammates from Cuba and how important it was for them to win aside from just getting gold and reppin the US. I just wondered as I watched were their similar stories from other countries. Again these two goes are probably more the exception than the rule as most of these Olympians are already set on the path to succeed in other areas win or not.

[cleodine velvet jackson]

Maybe I just missed it but they had little background stories on the gymnasts from the Bronx and his teammates from Cuba and how important it was for them to win aside from just getting gold and reppin the US. I just wondered as I watched were their similar stories from other countries. Again these two goes are probably more the exception than the rule as most of these Olympians are already set on the path to succeed in other areas win or not.

There were extended background stories on John Orozco, Danell Leya and others.

Lvdphse, have a great day!

[Martin Red]

more of how the athlete is groomed for this in other countries, regardless of money, class, status etc. I know the same goes on here as well but opportunities are still possible for those that seemingly have no hope or chance of competing.

Depends what sport, say something like showjumping, with competitors related to the Queen of England. There are loaded sports, like you aint getting into Polo when coming from a bricklaying background.

I think that goes for any country. You need sheikh money to own stables. But boxing, or cycling different game.

I'm a bit sick of hearing about the backgrounds to be honest, as soon as someone has a sniff of gold, it's they were slapped by their absent father who shat on their mother from a 15 story window whilst doing multiple whores on heroin in council block. But then, (especially in class ridden UK) don't seem to mention that someone has had tennis lessons on their private courts since 3 years old at their family mansion in Scotland.

[ngeso]

Martin,Ngeso with all sincerity I think you misinterpreted what I said. My apologies for not asking in a way that clearly defined what I was getting at. Damn straight they all work hard be it from US, Russia or any other repped country.

Not speaking on funding either but more of how the athlete is groomed for this in other countries, regardless of money, class, status etc. I know the same goes on here as well but opportunities are still possible for those that seemingly have no hope or chance of competing.

Maybe I just missed it but they had little background stories on the gymnasts from the Bronx and his teammates from Cuba and how important it was for them to win aside from just getting gold and reppin the US. I just wondered as I watched were their similar stories from other countries. Again these two goes are probably more the exception than the rule as most of these Olympians are already set on the path to succeed in other areas win or not.

I'm just taking the piss, mate. No worries. If anything, I tend to root for the.....uh......"underdog" anyways.

[D J 1 3 8]

I could be off completely on this, if so please educate. Some of our competitors have managed to to give up a large chunk of their lives perfecting their given talent despite coming from meager backgrounds and everyday struggles one wouldn't think an "Olympian" would go through.

I get the impression competitors from other countries (China, Russia even Mexico) typically come from the top of the so called gene pool of their country.

What are you basing this assumption on?

As Martin mentioned, like our athletes, they are simply the best in their country. I am not aware of social class being a factor at all.

J

[lvdphse]

What are you basing this assumption on?

As Martin mentioned, like our athletes, they are simply the best in their country. I am not aware of social class being a factor at all.

J

Fair question 138, and yes this is only my assumption I am likely way off which is why I asked. I assume this based off how governments in some of these countries work. I also base it on my perceptions formed long ago when it was the USSR and China which runs absolutely everything. Olympians in the past (and assumed now) that defected from their country. Although defects are likely for many other reasons it still points to an issue we wouldn't have to consider.

India repping hard this year with 2 billion (billion?!!) spent on prep and 200million on foreign coaches. Whatever, numbers are numbers I guess but I don't think it would be a gross generalization to say they are def a country of haves and haves not. Would someone there from a lower caste get the op to compete?

U.S has most of the same ills to more or lesser of a degree but ills aside we can't argue the opportunity to come up from absolutely noting. Example of what I'm getting at. The female from Poland got half a arm and competes at table tennis. She competes in para Olym but this year in regular one. She lost but did have the op to compete. Would this be possible in the other mentioned countries?

Again this thought only came up as a result of hearing the gymnast from Brooklyn and Cubas story. I'm sure each person in it has their own struggle as well.

[Martin Red]

India repping hard this year with 2 billion (billion?!!) spent on prep and 200million on foreign coaches.

Leaders
1
China 18 10 4 32
2
United States 15 8 9 32
3
Korea 7 2 4 13
4
France 6 3 6 15
5
United Kingdom 4 6 4 14
6
DPR Korea 4 - 1 5
7
Germany 3 8 4 15
8
Russia 3 5 7 15
9
Italy 3 5 2 10
10
Kazakhstan 3 - - 3
10
South Africa 3 - - 3
12
Japan 2 4 11 17
13
Hungary 2 1 1 4
14
Ukraine 2 - 4 6
15
Australia 1 7 2 10
16
Romania 1 3 2 6
17
Netherlands 1 1 3 5
18
Brazil 1 1 2 4
19
New Zealand 1 - 2 3
20
Slovenia 1 - 1 2
21
Georgia 1 - - 1
21
Lithuania 1 - - 1
21
Venezuela 1 - - 1
24
Mexico - 3 1 4
25
Canada - 2 5 7
26
Colombia - 2 1 3
26
Cuba - 2 1 3
28
Sweden - 2 - 2
29
Denmark - 1 1 2
29
Spain - 1 1 2
29
Indonesia - 1 1 2
29
Mongolia - 1 1 2
29
Norway - 1 1 2
34
Czech Republic - 1 - 1
34
Egypt - 1 - 1
34
Poland - 1 - 1
34
Thailand - 1 - 1
34
Chinese Taipei - 1 - 1
39
Slovakia - - 3 3
40
Azerbaijan - - 1 1
40
Belgium - - 1 1
40
Belarus - - 1 1
40
Greece - - 1 1
40
India - - 1 1
40
Moldova - - 1 1
40
Qatar - - 1 1
40
Singapore - - 1 1
40
Serbia - - 1 1
40
Uzbekistan - - 1 1

[Chris Wood]

proud how well our little country is doing... not sure what they're feeding the cyclists!

[mhd]

not sure what you are asking either, but, certain sports, gymnastics, for example are typically middle class (or higher) sports, as are sports like tennis, equestrian, swimming, etc. as such, it is difficult and expensive to compete or to receive the best in coaching and facilities. you seem to be asking if a poor kid in another country would get the same chance as orozco or leyva? good question because these two guys seem to be the exception as minority kids that made tremendous financial sacrifices to compete at the highest level, same with gold medal winning gabby douglas, the problem with these stories is that it ignores the sacrifices of the other kids on the gymnastics team, so, we are not privy to their finances, whether they are the kids of wall street hedge fund guys or truck drivers or walmart greeters.
in many countries, china for example, a kid that shows exceptional promise would be in essence raised in state run specialized athletic facilities to hone their craft for the purpose of repping china in the olympics. so, instead of orozco working at the gym his counterpart in china would live there.
Both systems are similar, here, you can get sponsors if you are poor and good, see lolo jones and BP's sponsorship, or gabby douglas moving from virginia beach to iowa or venus and serena moving from public courts in compton to the olympics

ultimately, though, the best athletes are somewhere else other than the olympics, the olympics represent the ones that got the opportunity to compete, not neccessarily the very best in that discipline at this time, imo

[DaveR]

... a great story, that's been running for years

Philly teens discover ponies, become polo champs - http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-18563_162-20052900.html

[mhd]

... a great story, that's been running for years

Philly teens discover ponies, become polo champs - http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-18563_162-20052900.html

saw the 60 minutes piece on this

[cleodine velvet jackson]

... a great story, that's been running for years

Philly teens discover ponies, become polo champs - http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-18563_162-20052900.html

[DaveR]

saw the 60 minutes piece on this

Work to ride - an amazing concept that usually trumps the word Can't

[Moksha]

not sure what you are asking either, but, certain sports, gymnastics, for example are typically middle class (or higher) sports, as are sports like tennis, equestrian, swimming, etc. as such, it is difficult and expensive to compete or to receive the best in coaching and facilities. you seem to be asking if a poor kid in another country would get the same chance as orozco or leyva? good question because these two guys seem to be the exception as minority kids that made tremendous financial sacrifices to compete at the highest level, same with gold medal winning gabby douglas, the problem with these stories is that it ignores the sacrifices of the other kids on the gymnastics team, so, we are not privy to their finances, whether they are the kids of wall street hedge fund guys or truck drivers or walmart greeters.
in many countries, china for example, a kid that shows exceptional promise would be in essence raised in state run specialized athletic facilities to hone their craft for the purpose of repping china in the olympics. so, instead of orozco working at the gym his counterpart in china would live there.
Both systems are similar, here, you can get sponsors if you are poor and good, see lolo jones and BP's sponsorship, or gabby douglas moving from virginia beach to iowa or venus and serena moving from public courts in compton to the olympics

ultimately, though, the best athletes are somewhere else other than the olympics, the olympics represent the ones that got the opportunity to compete, not neccessarily the very best in that discipline at this time, imo

Exactly... how many kids from Juarez, The Bronx or Uganda have access to the 10,000 road bikes and velodromes necessary for a life of training in track cycling? (Never mind the multi-million dollar horses for equestrian events). How many public high schools in the US have rowing or fencing teams? (More than a few elite private schools do!) How many poor people in any country can afford the years of coaching, nutritionists, video scouting of opponents, physical therapists, equipment and hours away from work required to compete at the highest levels these day? Very few....

And being the richest country in the world, the US has a college system that grooms, trains and scouts athletes like no other. And the US levels of scientific advantage over other countries is unreal (I recently heard an interview about all the science that goes into it, from nutritionists, to wind tunnel research for form, etc)

With a very few exceptions, most sports favor wealth.

[DaveR]

most sports favor winners, and folks that want to put in the work to become winners ... and the funding follows them

Find me 2 kids right now, where funding is the only thing prohibiting them from riding a bike in an oval all day through the Terrordome ... hilarious thing is, we only give a shit about these supposed 'exclusive' sports, every now and then (often every 4 years, or most notably, when someone of temporary posturing-BS interest, wins) ... circle out 1-4 years later, not many have interest, let alone even bring up the sport

[lvdphse]

There were extended background stories on John Orozco, Danell Leya and others.

Lvdphse, have a great day!

Yeah Cleo, those were the ones I caught. Very touching. Thats what got me thinking in the first place. Have you caught similar stories from from other countries, specifically those a little more "controlled" if you know what I mean.

[lvdphse]

... a great story, that's been running for years

Philly teens discover ponies, become polo champs - http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-18563_162-20052900.html

Word Dave! This is the type of stuff I'm speaking on. That true goodness "only in America" shesh! While it could happen in other countries it probably wouldn't. I gurantee you on a smaller level these things happen more that we think.

It only takes one step in the right direction like this to spark a revolution. One kid in the hood to see this story or a cousin or friend of one of them and the attitude of "only rich white kids do this" is gone.

[Dj Bones]

certain sports, gymnastics, for example are typically middle class (or higher) sports, as are sports like tennis, equestrian, swimming, etc. as such, it is difficult and expensive to compete or to receive the best in coaching and facilities.

I disagree that gymnastics or swimming are "middle class" sports, at least here in the UK anyway. If you're very good, you will get noticed, probably get invited to join a team and then you will have access to facilities and coaching etc, unlike tennis, fencing or the equestrian sports where you need the cash or good breeding to to be considered.

[ngeso]

With a very few exceptions, most sports favor wealth.

most sports favor winners, and folks that want to put in the work to become winners ... and the funding follows them

Find me 2 kids right now, where funding is the only thing prohibiting them from riding a bike in an oval all day through the Terrordome ... hilarious thing is, we only give a shit about these supposed 'exclusive' sports, every now and then (often every 4 years, or most notably, when someone of temporary posturing-BS interest, wins) ... circle out 1-4 years later, not many have interest, let alone even bring up the sport

Two things, perhaps.

- Historically sports were essentially the privilege of the wealthy(*). Sports as public pastimes and events are a fairly recent phenomenon, and only became possible with public funding and increased commercialisation.

- As professionalism advances, sports are increasingly becoming a desired way of life for the less wealthy to gain popular recognition and material rewards. Conversely sports are becoming less desirable as career options for the affluent because of the high risk of failure at garnering recognition and respect. Thus, while someone from a poor class background will more easily consider looking to professional sports to advance him- or herself, someone from an affluent background is more likely to seek success in academia, technology and commerce rather than sports. To the rich the overall worth of sporting achievement has diminished severly since the times of exclusivity (i.e. when distinction lay precisely in commanding the excessive means to lead the life of a 'gentleman sportsman') . On the other hand once you look past the very thin caste of multi-millionaire sports pop-idols of our times, there are millions of sports people who have had to give up their dreams of success and recognition, often without adequate fall-back options (think: classic high-school-quarterback-now-used-car-salesman).




(*) I have to check on whether this class aspect holds true for ancient Greek olympics, though...

[Martin Red]

proud how well our little country is doing... not sure what they're feeding the cyclists!

Wiggins and Hoy have quiet meger breakfasts, compared to Michaels Phelps, who, to be honest must let off some proper aqua stinkers after eating all those eggs

[DaveR]

Two things, perhaps.

- Historically sports were essentially the privilege of the wealthy(*). Sports as public pastimes and events are a fairly recent phenomenon, and only became possible with public funding and increased commercialisation.

- As professionalism advances, sports are increasingly becoming a desired way of life for the less wealthy to gain popular recognition and material rewards. Conversely sports are becoming less desirable as career options for the affluent because of the high risk of failure at garnering recognition and respect. Thus, while someone from a poor class background will more easily consider looking to professional sports to advance him- or herself, someone from an affluent background is more likely to seek success in academia, technology and commerce rather than sports. To the rich the overall worth of sporting achievement has diminished severly since the times of exclusivity (i.e. when distinction lay precisely in commanding the excessive means to lead the life of a 'gentleman sportsman') . On the other hand once you look past the very thin caste of multi-millionaire sports pop-idols of our times, there are millions of sports people who have had to give up their dreams of success and recognition, often without adequate fall-back options (think: classic high-school-quarterback-now-used-car-salesman).

(*) I have to check on whether this class aspect holds true for ancient Greek olympics, though...

Yes, the key word is 'historically' and it would apply if the athletes and medal winners were 75-400 years old - rather than in their teens 20s and 30s