Olympics: Our guys vs theirs

[ngeso]

I see your point. To an extent, I agree. However, i think that superior were born to be the great athletes that they were/are. They are able access resources after proving themselves to be physically superior. I think abetted point of contention (if I may be presumptuous ) is to look at the disparities amongst athletes which originate from countries with caloric surpluses rather than caloric deficits. In other words, this has less to do with wealth than it does with the opportunity that economic stability brings

The promise, the allure of economic stability.


I think it's the other way round. I think physical superiority is irrelevant unless it can be transformed into material gain, and thus status. Without the cash reward one is really just a dumb jock.

The difference between idealist amateur sports of yesteryear and profane professional sports of today is, at its core, a class difference. The poor did not partake in competitive sports until professionalisation, until money was to be made (they quite simply couldn't afford to!). And often despite severe disadvantages.

In that sense a return to amateur olympic competition - a topic that comes up every four years because of politics, corruption, doping or some other scandal - would be pointless for just about everyone, because there would not be any tangible reward for anyone. Love, ethics, honour and fairness do not pay for mansions, limos, supermodel girlfriends and bling.

[House]

"The average medal winner comes from a country with per capita G.D.P. of $27,000 in today’s dollars, which is well above the worldwide average of around $11,000."

If thats the median or the mean, doesn't this refute your argument?

[Moksha]

"British Olympic Association Chairman Colin Moynihan told reporters it was "wrong and unacceptable" that more than 50 percent of the country's medallists in Beijing in 2008 came from elite independent schools."

[Monny JcIntosh]

Yes, I'm aware of this ... and my question still stands to Moksha, why the richest nation that wins the most (medals), can't buy a WC Championship, or even get in to the Olympics --- b/c this is about money, and certainly the US should be allocating money to winning in the most popular sport in the world

The answer(s) is simple ... b/c sports aren't won with money, they are won with talent and hard work on the field -- that's why we love sports

Given the level of interest in football in the US and the standard of the domestic league, they're punching above their weight with that qualification record. More than that, they often do pretty well in the finals themselves. I don't know whether that's money, Übermensch exceptionalism, or whatever, but it's not a very compelling counter-example.

[House]

The promise, the allure of economic stability.


I think it's the other way round. I think physical superiority is irrelevant unless it can be transformed into material gain, and thus status. Without the cash reward one is really just a dumb jock.

The difference between idealist amateur sports of yesteryear and profane professional sports of today is, at its core, a class difference. The poor did not partake in competitive sports until professionalisation, until money was to be made (they quite simply couldn't afford to!). And often despite severe disadvantages.

In that sense a return to amateur olympic competition - a topic that comes up every four years because of politics, corruption, doping or some other scandal - would be pointless for just about everyone, because there would not be any tangible reward for anyone. Love, ethics, honour and fairness do not pay for mansions, limos, supermodel girlfriends and bling.

While this may be true, correlation does not imply causation. One might excel in a sport and then choose to go into it for the money. However, the money is not the root cause of ones participation (although I concede that for some it is). Additionally, your idea implies that there is a payoff to be had from participation in all sports. The lack of a contract money for the Professional World Curling Association helps to disprove this notion.

[DaveR]

Given the level of interest in football in the US and the standard of the domestic league, they're punching above their weight with that qualification record. More than that, they often do pretty well in the finals themselves. I don't know whether that's money, Übermensch exceptionalism, or whatever, but it's not a very compelling counter-example.

oh come on now, we could dilute the elements of this discussion down so much, that everything is accurate - now it's 'just qualifying' and punching above weight ... I thought it was a about the Richest Country WINS the most medals ... sheeeeit, we had bobsledders from Jamaica, got that cat rowing yesterday, and Nigera playihg hoops in the Olympics -- what's the 'interest' in those countries in those sports, b/c they all qualified

.. and again all that said, the US didn't qualify for soccer in the olympics

[Moksha]

Medal count as it stands right now:

1. United States	21	10	11	42
2. China	20	13	9	42
3. Russia	3	12	8	23
4. Britain	8	6	8	22
5. Japan	2	8	11	21
6. France	8	5	6	19
7. Germany	5	8	6	19
8. South Korea	9	2	5	16
9. Australia	1	9	4	14
10. Italy	4	5	3	12
11. Romania	1	4	2	7
12. Canada	0	2	5	7
13. New Zealand	3	0	3	6
14. Netherlands	2	1	3	6
15. Ukraine	2	0	4	6

Countries by GDP

1	United States	14,447,100
2	China, People's Republic of	5,739,358
3	Japan	5,458,873
4	Germany	3,280,334
5	France	2,559,850
6	United Kingdom	2,253,552
7	Brazil	2,088,966
8	Italy	2,051,290
9	India	1,722,328
10	Canada	1,577,040
11	Russian Federation	1,479,823
12	Spain	1,407,322
13	Australia	1,271,945
14	Mexico	1,032,224
15	Republic of Korea	1,014,369

No correlation?!?!?

[DaveR]

Medal count as it stands right now:

1. United States	21	10	11	42
2. China	20	13	9	42
3. Russia	3	12	8	23
4. Britain	8	6	8	22
5. Japan	2	8	11	21
6. France	8	5	6	19
7. Germany	5	8	6	19
8. South Korea	9	2	5	16
9. Australia	1	9	4	14
10. Italy	4	5	3	12
11. Romania	1	4	2	7
12. Canada		2	5	7
13. New Zealand	3		3	6
14. Netherlands	2	1	3	6
15. Ukraine	2		4	6

Countries by GDP

1	United States	14,447,100
2	China, People's Republic of	5,739,358
3	Japan	5,458,873
4	Germany	3,280,334
5	France	2,559,850
6	United Kingdom	2,253,552
7	Brazil	2,088,966
8	Italy	2,051,290
9	India	1,722,328
10	Canada	1,577,040
11	Russian Federation	1,479,823
12	Spain	1,407,322
13	Australia	1,271,945
14	Mexico	1,032,224
15	Republic of Korea	1,014,369

No correlation?!?!?

The US should have 3x the medals of China ... Russia's GDP is 1/14, but medals are 1/2 - are they overachievers?

There's a point where presenting information like this, actually hurts your argument - and that point actually was a few posts ago ... meanwhile, you won't answer the Soccer question

[House]

Btw

The average income in China is about 9500 dollars annually. They are second in the medal count.

I would propose that national income is the wrong parameter to investigate

[Monny JcIntosh]

oh come on now, we could dilute the elements of this discussion down so much, that everything is accurate - now it's 'just qualifying' and punching above weight ... I thought it was a about the Richest Country WINS the most medals ... sheeeeit, we had bobsledders from Jamaica, got that cat rowing yesterday, and Nigera playihg hoops in the Olympics -- what's the 'interest' in those countries in those sports, b/c they all qualified

.. and again all that said, the US didn't qualify for soccer in the olympics

I have no idea what the interest in those countries is for those sports. I'm just puzzled why you think the US would be doing much better than they are in football if Moksha were right.

As for the Olympics, the US mens team didn't qualify, but the women did, and are probably favourites to win it. They're rated #1 in the world.

[DaveR]

I have no idea what the interest in those countries is for those sports. I'm just puzzled why you think the US would be doing much better than they are in football if Moksha were right.

As for the Olympics, the US mens team didn't qualify, but the women did, and are probably favourites to win it. They're rated #1 in the world.

We're getting way off course here, b/c I don't think Moksha is right ... again, I am saying that money doesn't win, the athletes win with their hard work & dedication

Women's soccer being #1 is a huge source of pride in the US ... but unfortunately in the US, folks don't care that much about the women's end of any sport (in a sport that is played by Men, and is popular)

And again, this is getting diluted, starting to talk about 'interest' and 'popularity' ... Moksha's post was that MONEY WINS - and I have asked w/o response, why doesn't the U.S. WIN (not arrive, not participate, not qualify), in the most popular sport in the word? (if money wins)

[Monny JcIntosh]

We're getting way off course here, b/c I don't think Moksha is right ... again, I am saying that money doesn't win, the athletes win with their hard work & dedication

Women's soccer being #1 is a huge source of pride in the US ... but unfortunately in the US, folks don't care that much about the women's end of any sport (in a sport that is played by Men, and is popular)

And again, this is getting diluted, starting to talk about 'interest' and 'popularity' ... Moksha's post was that MONEY WINS - and I have asked w/o response, why doesn't the U.S. WIN (not arrive, not participate, not qualify), in the most popular sport in the word? (if money wins)

We are getting off course because you're setting up a straw man. If you really think Moksha's making a claim so absurd as to imply that the US ought to be winning the World Cup, I don't know why you're bothering to talk about it. (Or not going for the obvious counter-example: how come Carlos Slim isn't in the Olympics this year?) And there are pretty obviously more interesting claims in the vicinity.

[DaveR]

We are getting off course because you're setting up a straw man. If you really think Moksha's making a claim so absurd as to imply that the US ought to be winning the World Cup, I don't know why you're bothering to talk about it. (Or not going for the obvious counter-example: how come Carlos Slim isn't in the Olympics this year?) And there are pretty obviously more interesting claims in the vicinity.

You're right, I should have never said World Cup, and should have kept it to US Mens' Olympic Soccer ... and my question still stands

[The Good Reverend Rollo Goodlove]

Yes, I'm aware of this ... and my question still stands to Moksha, why the richest nation that wins the most (medals), can't buy a WC Championship, or even get in to the Olympics --- b/c this is about money, and certainly the US should be allocating money to winning in the most popular sport in the world

The answer(s) is simple ... b/c sports aren't won with money, they are won with talent and hard work on the field -- that's why we love sports

In the countries where soccer is popular (which is every country except here) the best athletes tend to gravitate towards that sport. Here in the US they gravitate towards baseball, football and basketball. Were soccer as popular in the US as American Football we would have a very competitive world cup team.

[The Good Reverend Rollo Goodlove]

Medal count as it stands right now:

1. United States	21	10	11	42
2. China	20	13	9	42
3. Russia	3	12	8	23
4. Britain	8	6	8	22
5. Japan	2	8	11	21
6. France	8	5	6	19
7. Germany	5	8	6	19
8. South Korea	9	2	5	16
9. Australia	1	9	4	14
10. Italy	4	5	3	12
11. Romania	1	4	2	7
12. Canada	0	2	5	7
13. New Zealand	3	0	3	6
14. Netherlands	2	1	3	6
15. Ukraine	2	0	4	6

Countries by GDP

1	United States	14,447,100
2	China, People's Republic of	5,739,358
3	Japan	5,458,873
4	Germany	3,280,334
5	France	2,559,850
6	United Kingdom	2,253,552
7	Brazil	2,088,966
8	Italy	2,051,290
9	India	1,722,328
10	Canada	1,577,040
11	Russian Federation	1,479,823
12	Spain	1,407,322
13	Australia	1,271,945
14	Mexico	1,032,224
15	Republic of Korea	1,014,369

No correlation?!?!?

Correlation? Sure. I thought this was a question of causation.

[DaveR]

In the countries where soccer is popular (which is every country except here) the best athletes tend to gravitate towards that sport. Here in the US they gravitate towards baseball, football and basketball. Were soccer as popular in the US as American Football we would have a very competitive world cup team.

I agree with all this, and it has nothing to do with my point(s)

Money doesn't win, is my only point in this discussion ... as Jonny said above, let's try not to branch out in to who gravitates to what and why (that was my mistake by talking about other things earlier)

[The Good Reverend Rollo Goodlove]

I agree with all this, and it has nothing to do with my point(s)

Money doesn't win, is my only point in this discussion ... as Jonny said above, let's try not to branch out in to who gravitates to what and why (that was my mistake by talking about other things earlier)

Who said I was disputing your point? You asked a question and I answered.

[DaveR]

Who said I was disputing your point? You asked a question and I answered.

excellent

[House]

Gabby Douglas, Ryan Lochte: Why Families of America’s Olympics Athletes Are Broke

Gabby Douglas is America’s newest sweetheart. She’s also its newest millionaire. Her mother, however, is broke.

The 16-year-old gymnast, who became the first black gymnast to win the all-around competition last week in London, stands to make between $1 million and $3 million a year in endorsements, and has already agreed to plaster her infectious smile on the Kellogg’s corn flakes box. Douglas’s forthcoming gold-medal payday makes a new revelation about her family all the more shocking.

Natalie Hawkins, Douglas’s mother, filed for bankruptcy earlier this year in Virginia, court documents show. The Chapter 13 filing reveals roughly $80,000 in debts, and will allow her to reorganize her finances to pay down the total over several years. Hawkins, who went on long-term medical disability in 2009, reported a six-month stretch in which the single mother of four had little to no income.

The news comes the day after TMZ broke the story that Ryan Lochte’s parents are facing foreclosure on their Florida home. CitiMortgage is suing the Lochtes, claiming that they stopped making mortgage payments in February 2011. As with Douglas, Lochte, who won five medals in London, is primed for a slew of endorsement deals that couldn’t be better timed for his family.

Both athletes are—at this moment, at least—national heroes and beacons of American patriotism. But the financial strain their years of training put on their families indicates that investing in a future Olympian may not always be a financially sound decision. How did these families get so broke?


AP Photo (2)

Parents of gymnasts, for one, can expect to fork over upward of $1,000 a month to training facilities to get their child in Olympic shape. Travel costs force that total to skyrocket. Leotards and warm-up suits can run $300 to $500 for a complete set. There are entry fees for each meet and competition. When a gymnast is chosen for the U.S. national team and begins traveling internationally, USA Gymnastics begins picking up the cost of training and travel for the gymnast and his or her coach, but any family member who jet-sets with them does so on his or her own dime.

Of course, only gymnasts training at what’s called the “elite” level rack up that kind of bill. Then again, the most promising athletes begin training at that level when they’re 12 or 13 years old, says Karla Grimes, the general manager at the Gage Center training facility in Missouri. That means six years, at least, of 30-hour gym days and, at Gage, $600-a-month training costs.

Eye-popping expenses are par for the course for nearly every Olympic sport. Membership costs at an elite swim club can run $1,500 to $3,000 annually, says Tom Himes, who coached a young Michael Phelps at the North Baltimore Aquatic Club. Equipment can cost $500 each year. Those slick Speedo Fastskin3 swim trunks Phelps wears? They retail for $395.

“The Olympics are where
a moment on the medal stand, representing 300 million people,
is beyond price.”

For families, there’s the cost of travel and tickets to the events. Ahead of the London Games, Eddie Adams, father of Olympic swimmer Camille Adams, predicted, “It's probably going to be around $15,000 to $20,000 for me, my ex-wife, Camille's twin, my sister, and my sister-in-law to go.” And let’s not forget the grocery bill for those rumored 12,000-calorie, Olympic-size feasts.

Even the more obscure sports—the ones whose stars won’t end up on a corn flakes box or the cover of Vogue—can be prohibitively costly. The annual price of training for Maya Lawrence, an Olympic fencer, is estimated to be $20,000. “It did affect my parents,” she says. “Once I decided I wanted to go to competitions, they really supported me.” Teodor Gheorghe, COO of USA Table Tennis, estimates that top-level players shell out $15,000 for each of the six to eight years it takes to perfect their games; a good paddle alone costs $300.

And with athletes devoting essentially their whole lives to training, there’s typically no room for side jobs or normal careers. While some competitors snag sponsorship deals to offset the lack of steady income, others, like weightlifter Sarah Robles, barely scrape by. The 23-year-old first-time Olympian lived on just $400 a month—her stipend from U.S.A. weightlifting—as she trained full-time for the London Games.

Ryan Lochte wins gold in the men's 400m individual medley.

All of that may seem worth it for a shot at the medal stand; in addition to high-profile endorsement opportunities, a gold medal comes with a $25,000 cash prize. Each member of the “Fab Five” gymnastics team that took home the gold medal in London will make a base salary of $100,000 for participation in the 40-city Kellogg’s Tour of Gymnastics Champions that will run from September to November.

But not every American athlete enduring the outsize cost of Olympic training actually makes to it the Games. The Gage Center, for example, trained gymnast Sarah Finnegan, who went to London as an alternate for the 2012 U.S. team, as well as Courtney McCool and Terin Humphrey, who were on the 2008 Olympic team. But Grimes estimates that there are roughly 20 girls at Gage training at elite levels, and writing those accompanying checks. For most of them, the Olympics aren’t even in the realm of possibility. So what’s the motivation?

“If there’s no gold medal, there’s a college scholarship,” says Grimes. “There’s some monetary value there.” It makes the financial struggles during those years of training worth it. “I liken it to paying for college early.”

Take the case of Bridget Sloan, who was a member of the silver-medal U.S. women’s gymnastics team in 2008, when she was 16. She was 10 when she started the elite program, with the initial goal of being a college—not an Olympic—athlete. “I figured if I kept with the elite program, I would get an elite scholarship,” she says. It wasn’t until five years later, when she made her first world team, that a trip to the Beijing Games even emerged as a possibility. Still, following her 2008 Olympic journey, Sloan, unlike teammates Shawn Johnson and Nastia Liukin, rejected endorsement deals and retained her amateur status in order to retain NCAA eligibility. She was only a sophomore in high school at the time, and still had dreams of competing in college.

Sloan is heading to the University of Florida as a freshman in the fall, after having taken a year off to train for the 2012 Olympic trials. (She injured herself just prior to the competition.) She received a full scholarship, proof she says, that the years of expensive training were worth it. “I hope [other] families realize that and don’t think they wasted money on leotards and scrunchies.”

The burden placed on American athletes, whose families must foot the bill themselves for more than a decade of expensive training, is in stark contrast to that of the world’s other Olympic powerhouse. China, the only country topping the U.S. in the medal count, boasts a government-backed national sports program, churning out gold medalists with dizzying success over the past two decades—all on the government’s dime.

As the financial struggles of the Lochte and Douglas clans make headlines, one can’t help but wonder if the U.S. should follow suit and pony up the cash for the training of its own Olympic stars. But there’s the questionable zeal with which China trains its athletes—taking them away from their homes at a young age and placing them in training facilities for arduous daily workouts—which makes the idea much less appealing.

Take the case of diver Wu Minxia, who won gold for China in the 3m synchronized springboard event. Her post-victory euphoria was promptly wrecked when her parents finally revealed to her that her grandparents died the year before and her mother battled—and defeated—breast cancer. “It was essential to her this white lie,” Wu’s father told the Shanghai Morning Post, explaining that he didn’t want the bad news to derail his daughter’s diving career. Is there a possibility that a U.S. government-backed sports program could foster the same, possibly abusive excess?

While most sports’ national organizations cover the training and travel costs for an athlete once they make the national team, some say that’s not enough. NBA star and former Team USA member Dwyane Wade caused a stir last spring when he suggested that athletes (specifically, NBA players) should be paid to participate in the Olympics. Such a practice would be more valuable to athletes like Sarah Robles than a multimillion-dollar NBA supernova like Wade. For those struggling Olympians, a substantial paycheck would be a godsend.

But it’s unlikely ever to happen. National organizations are already struggling to support their athletes. As the economy falters, costs of competition rise and sponsorships dwindle. Many sports are bleeding money, and it’s affecting their Olympic presence. U.S. Ski and Snowboard was forced to institute pay cuts across the board for its staff, and introduce layoffs just prior to the 2010 Olympics. It considered requiring its athletes to pay more of their expenses. The U.S. Bobsled and Skeleton organization found itself tightening its belt and sending only one men’s bobsled team, instead of two, to European competitions that year as well.

As the startling news of the Douglas and Lochte family financial woes stun sports fans, the idea of paying Olympic athletes—or at least giving some sort of monetary respite to their families—is a nice one, but it’s not plausible. Besides, says Mike Lopresti at USA Today, what these athletes and their families are getting from the Olympic experience is already immeasurable compensation.

“The Olympics are where a moment on the medal stand, representing 300 million people, is beyond price,” he says. “Opportunity is the treasure that is offered at the Olympics. The chance to hold up a championship, not to a happy owner or satisfied season-ticket base, but a country. The chance to lean over and have someone slip a gold medal over your head. For many it will be the most cherished day of their sporting lives. That's not enough for someone? Then why be there?”

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...are-broke.html

[DaveR]

All the Medalists: Men’s 100-Meter Sprint

Usain Bolt vs. 116 years of Olympic sprinters

Article & Video Link - http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...t-ever.html?hp

Based on the athletes’ average speeds, if every Olympic medalist raced each other, Usain Bolt (the London version) would win, with a wide distribution of Olympians behind him. Below, where each sprinter would be when Bolt finishes his race.

...

[ngeso]

All the Medalists: Men’s 100-Meter Sprint

Usain Bolt vs. 116 years of Olympic sprinters

Article & Video Link - http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...t-ever.html?hp

Based on the athletes’ average speeds, if every Olympic medalist raced each other, Usain Bolt (the London version) would win, with a wide distribution of Olympians behind him. Below, where each sprinter would be when Bolt finishes his race.

...

Awesome. BTW, as you will have seen, turns out that we Kenyans are having a nightmare of a games. Nothing is working out. Everyone is really disappointed.

[Martin Red]

1 China 34 21 18 73
2 United States 30 19 21 70
3 Great Britain 22 13 13 48
4 Korea 12 5 6 23
5 Russia 10 18 20 48

[mhd]

Awesome. BTW, as you will have seen, turns out that we Kenyans are having a nightmare of a games. Nothing is working out. Everyone is really disappointed.

love the hand signals

[House]

for me, the beauty of the Olympics: whether it's "our guys" or "their guys" somewhere out there is a low talent but hard playing cat with a wicked low post turnaround hook/humble that cracks jokes all through the game (to the point that everyone occasionally stops to laugh) that is just like me. I'll never meet this person, but I know he's out there because he grew up with these players and allowed them to shine due to his mediocre skills. The love of the game connects us. It gives me hope for humanity.

The Olympics facilitates this connection. Hopefully, these events, and their analogs, continue to unite and provide the perfect foil to those that live to divide

[Sean G]

wrong thread...