Making Change in Dance Music (Donger Philosophy 101)

[The Donger]

Does one need to dismiss the legends that came before them?

Not entirely, maybe you can appreciate that they did this and that for the music, but do you need to draw the line somewhere and say "**** em"? I'm doing my own thing, and in order to do it, I have to destroy my idols/icons and/or thier way of thinking?

Sort of like Godard did with the French Cinema when he created the New Wave of film and filmakers... He was a loud mouthed jerk, dissed a ton of filmakers to make his points known, and proceeded to make big changes in filmaking once he was able to seperate himself from the rules and the people that created them, and make a name for himself.

I used to diss people loudly (I kinda stopped to show some respect since I am on the DHP), although I haven't quite broken through with any major changes in the music yet, hahaha. But I understand where someone like Godard was coming from.

I was on a skateboarding site and the new kids were dissing some of the innovative skaters of my generation, calling them tired and whatnot. At first I was pretty frustrated, much like many of the old school disco heads on DHP can get. I told the new kids to shut the **** up, and show some respect. Then I schooled them. Then I felt old. Then I realised that in a way, they were right. It's part of being young.

I saw they were doing the same things I have done, with the reason of seperating yourself from the past, and making something new and calling it your own. I'm not saying it's nice, but...

Maybe the newer generations needs to do this in some way and should stop trying to please the old heads?

[Bill Blake]

I think a healthy dose of rebellion is good for youngins…and there is some shit they can definately call out when the old folks are full of shit........

However, before you can go dissin the older ways, forms, techniques, sounds….you better sure understand or be able to do what the **** it is your dissin…....or then your just a fool...

I think idea that people come up with ingenious ways of innovation in art without any ties to the past or consideration of the art before them is a big fat romantic myth.

A perfect example is Ornette Coleman. Sure they called it ‘Free Jazz’ like some people got fifty million names for dance music now, but here is one of the most innovative players of the last century and yet ALL his innovations are based on the blues and rhythmic advancements based on what cats were doing before him, yet he was creative, totally his own and ground breaking…………..but still rooted within a tradition.

Plus no matter what kids are doing it’s the best for the elders to give them room to do their own creative thing, balance that with lessons teachings about the shit before them and remind them they should master as much of the past as can be done and yet to also be comfortable and let their ‘own’ sound come.

[ June 23, 2003, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: Jamie Lennox ]

[yodvibes]

We're not reinventing the wheel, just learning new ways to use it.

[The Donger]

Originally posted by Jamie Lennox:


I think idea that people come up with ingenious ways of innovation in art without any ties to the past or consideration of the art before them is a big fat romantic myth.

True, although I don't remember anyone arguing otherwise.

[D J 1 3 8]

I feel you, but in reality this has already happened. The next generation has said "**** off" and they created their own shit. It's techno (I'm talking big rave techno so let's not start that Detroit techno discussion again). It's Drum N bass. It's a lot of things. The one thing it AIN'T is "soulful house music". We have discussed this many times here on DHP as you know. We are a cult. We are small and we are growing smaller. DJs feel the need to please the old heads because that's a great deal of the crowd, and it's their job to play for their crowd. If the crowd was all 18 year old kids on E you'd hear different music. The next generation have created their own icons, their own thing, most people here just happen to think it sounds like shit.

[The Donger]

Anyway I think you can still innovate and twist old ideas into new ones while you still show respect to the originators (like Moodymann does), but I am just saying I understand the frustrated ones too...

[Jolyon]

There's something in that I guess.

For me, the bottom line for DJing is this - and it took me a few years to work this out, but I got there in the mid-90s - you have to do your own thing and play what you feel comfortable playing. Try not to follow fashions, stick with what you like and keep going. Fashions can be good for revealing good old music, but still, do what feels right for you. All the best DJs who I respect have followed that path.

Many of the godfathers have much to teach us about the art and craft of music selection and DJing. If you think about it, many of the top DJs around today were tutored or influenced by some of the pioneers.

My favourite DJs are Jose Padilla, David Mancuso, more recently Harvey, and a couple of English guys you won't know but I'll give them props anyway - Moonboots and McCready from Manchester. I've learned things from listening to their sets etc. etc. Also Bill Brewster is an inspiration for his love of music and his ethos of 'who ****ing cares who made it, if i like it and it's good i'll buy it'.

I'm even boring myself now, so I'll stop. Haha.

[Bill Blake]

Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jamie Lennox:


I think idea that people come up with ingenious ways of innovation in art without any ties to the past or consideration of the art before them is a big fat romantic myth.

True, although I don't remember anyone arguing otherwise. </font>[/QUOTE]a lot of kids whether art of anything else have that 'Yo why I gotta learn this math shit...Im gonna major in english' attitude about life.

[Moksha]

Godard wanted to be exactly like Howard Hawkes, an American director whose prime was 20 years prior to the French New Wave. Godard, Truffaut and the rest of the Cashier du Cinema peeps were still looking back, emulating their idols. They were just dissing the mainstream French cinema of the time. . .kind of like how house peeps now diss the mainstream music of today while emulating producers from 20 years ago.

Bad choice of allusions, Dong.

[JL]

Rebellion and lack of respect goes hand in hand with youth. If a someone truly respects the artform, they'll start to study it, regardless if they embrace tradition or not. Innovation, by definition, requires an immense knowledge and deep understanding of what has come before. You can be creating something that you think is new, but someone else may have already done it. People who try to innovate need to study the history way more than the coddling suckup clones. With that study and inevitable maturity, I don't think anyone could not respect what has come before simply because there is so much out there and so much has been done, and in the face of that, the student's attempt at innovation becomes rather daunting.

[Jolyon]

Originally posted by JL:
If a someone truly respects the artform, they'll start to study it, regardless if they embrace tradition or not. Innovation, by definition, requires an immense knowledge and deep understanding of what has come before. You can be creating something that you think is new, but someone else may have already done it. People who try to innovate need to study the history way more than the coddling suckup clones.

On point JL.

[The Donger]

Sometimes people start innovating in thier own little ways, and it happens to coincide with other people making the same little changes for themselves. Maybe it is out of a frustration of the extreme rules that have been put on an artform. But Artists can have the same ideas at the same times in different places... so the pendulum swings.

So Jolyon, I know what you mean. I play Maceo Parker, Pharell & The Neptunes stuff, Cabaret Voltaire, Moodymann, Kenny Dope, The Dance, etc... all in my sets regardless of who plays what and how they do it, regardless of it being "house" enopugh for people, as long as it's true to my personal tastes.

Seems like more people are doing this, slowly but surely. But I guess you can also trace some of these freeform ideas back to places like The Loft and Garage anyway. Unfortunately the meaning behind the process got lost in the efforts of many jocks to duplicate the end result, which entirely defeats the purpose to begin with.

Just thinking out loud...

[The Donger]

Originally posted by Orion:
Godard wanted to be exactly like Howard Hawkes, an American director whose prime was 20 years prior to the French New Wave. Godard, Truffaut and the rest of the Cashier du Cinema peeps were still looking back, emulating their idols. They were just dissing the mainstream French cinema of the time. . .kind of like how house peeps now diss the mainstream music of today while emulating producers from 20 years ago.

Bad choice of allusions, Dong.

Shut the **** up white boy.

[Moksha]

Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
Shut the **** up white boy.

does this qualify as a personal attack on DHP?

[Jolyon]

Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
Sometimes people start innovating in thier own little ways, and it happens to coincide with other people making the same little changes for themselves. Maybe it is out of a frustration of the extreme rules that have been put on an artform. But Artists can have the same ideas at the same times in different places... so the pendulum swings.

So Jolyon, I know what you mean. I play Maceo Parker, Pharell & The Neptunes stuff, Cabaret Voltaire, Moodymann, Kenny Dope, The Dance, etc... all in my sets regardless of who plays what and how they do it, regardless of it being "house" enopugh for people, as long as it's true to my personal tastes.

Seems like more people are doing this, slowly but surely. But I guess you can also trace some of these freeform ideas back to places like The Loft and Garage anyway. Unfortunately the meaning behind the process got lost in the efforts of many jocks to duplicate the end result, which entirely defeats the purpose to begin with.

Just thinking out loud...

Damn right...there are no rules. What pissed me off about the ****ing house scene over here is everything is so structured, safe and BORING.

[The Donger]

Originally posted by Orion:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
Shut the **** up white boy.

does this qualify as a personal attack on DHP? </font>[/QUOTE]Hahahahahaha! jerk!

[Nicholas]

Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
Sometimes people start innovating in thier own little ways, and it happens to coincide with other people making the same little changes for themselves. Maybe it is out of a frustration of the extreme rules that have been put on an artform. But Artists can have the same ideas at the same times in different places... so the pendulum swings.

So Jolyon, I know what you mean. I play Maceo Parker, Pharell & The Neptunes stuff, Cabaret Voltaire, Moodymann, Kenny Dope, The Dance, etc... all in my sets regardless of who plays what and how they do it, regardless of it being "house" enopugh for people, as long as it's true to my personal tastes.

Seems like more people are doing this, slowly but surely. But I guess you can also trace some of these freeform ideas back to places like The Loft and Garage anyway. Unfortunately the meaning behind the process got lost in the efforts of many jocks to duplicate the end result, which entirely defeats the purpose to begin with.

Just thinking out loud...

You play moodyman?????

[Moksha]

Oh, and also, oh wise Donger, with the exception of "Au Bout du Souffle" (aka "Breatless") and (arguably) "Weekend," all of Godard's films suck.

Is that what you want. . .a bunch of prtenetious, pseudo-intellectual, BORING house music tracks? Oh wait...you DO like Moodyman so much...

Godard...hahahahaha nice.

Next!

[ June 23, 2003, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: Orion ]

[The Donger]

Originally posted by Jolyon:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
Sometimes people start innovating in thier own little ways, and it happens to coincide with other people making the same little changes for themselves. Maybe it is out of a frustration of the extreme rules that have been put on an artform. But Artists can have the same ideas at the same times in different places... so the pendulum swings.

So Jolyon, I know what you mean. I play Maceo Parker, Pharell & The Neptunes stuff, Cabaret Voltaire, Moodymann, Kenny Dope, The Dance, etc... all in my sets regardless of who plays what and how they do it, regardless of it being "house" enopugh for people, as long as it's true to my personal tastes.

Seems like more people are doing this, slowly but surely. But I guess you can also trace some of these freeform ideas back to places like The Loft and Garage anyway. Unfortunately the meaning behind the process got lost in the efforts of many jocks to duplicate the end result, which entirely defeats the purpose to begin with.

Just thinking out loud...

Damn right...there are no rules. What pissed me off about the ****ing house scene over here is everything is so structured, safe and BORING. </font>[/QUOTE]Exacts. Although I have calmed down much, this is much of the reason I have felt the need to lash out loud. It doesn't get shit done I realised, only I can make change within myself. So I try not to worry about what eveyone else is sweating. That's just my own immature stuff coming out, but I will defend my past actions in the sense that it all stems from my love and passion of the music. It's tough to see an "artform" die in an attempt to be commercially viable.

Loose quote from Style Wars: "I didn't get into this to be in the art galleries, I didn't get into this to go to France. I don't care about any of that. I just want to bomb. I don't care about nothing else..."

[imported_Gman]

Originally posted by Orion:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
Shut the **** up white boy.

does this qualify as a personal attack on DHP? </font>[/QUOTE]Who knows, can't tell when you Kuo folks are kidding or not.

[Moksha]

Originally posted by Gman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Orion:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
Shut the **** up white boy.

does this qualify as a personal attack on DHP? </font>[/QUOTE]Who knows, can't tell when you Kuo folks are kidding or not. </font>[/QUOTE]Hahaha! Dong...quit being so mean to me! ;)

Godard: "All you need for a movie is a gun and a girl."

[TAC]

Originally posted by Jolyon:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JL:
Innovation, by definition, requires an immense knowledge and deep understanding of what has come before.

On point JL. </font>[/QUOTE]Drop science killer. This is why I always tell people who claim they "spin" to come check me about 10 or so. Granted, this number can decrease based on at what point along the time line I meet em.

[Jolyon]

Hey Dong, on Saturday night I had a great time at Low Life, DJing, hanging out with friends, etc. etc.

Then I get back to my flat at 7am and my flatmate has brought some guy back with her who proceeds to bore the **** out of me with a CD of his own house music 'creations'. Terrible tribal house, really bad. He asked me what I thought and I politely told him it wasn't my bag, but he kept pressing. So in the end I said, "It's terrible. It has no emotion, no funk, it doesn't rock, I don't get it." He was quite cool about my response but then boasted about how he and his friend had released 176 house records in the last year...and how most of the tracks on this CD had taken only a couple of hours to churn out.

That is what some people in the UK house scene think of the music - disposable product to be banged out, all sounding the same, lacking in any soul (and I don't mean some warbling vocals over a lame slow jazzy house beat when I say soul) or definition.

Right there I felt pleased I moved away from that shit a long long time ago and got back to music I love.

[The Donger]

"Form leads to Formlessness" - Bruce Lee

"You've got to learn the rules before you can break them" - I forgot

[JL]

Very simple: Play the music you love in a way that you feel you have to, the way you feel you're forced to play it when you're up there in the booth, hearing it.

[ June 23, 2003, 04:19 PM: Message edited by: JL ]