Musicians and Musicianship

[darrow]

So I'm at the gym this morning being visually assaulted by rock music videos (way too much angst for 630am) and started wondering about something.

My perception is that in the Rock world, there is often an appreciation of and following of musicians...that there is an awareness of and following of the drummer or guitar player or keyboardists, etc. Aside from jazz (and even then I'm not sure about that world), it doesn't seem like there is an equivalent thing embraced by the Black music culture today. Why is that?

Has the presence of technology made musicians in black culture obsolete? Is there more at work? Economics maybe? Maybe we can't afford music lessons or maybe schools can't offer music lessons, meaning the appreciation of musicians isn't fostered at a young age or maybe it is just not economically feasible to hire musicians for recordings? Has there ever really been an appreciation and following of musicians, even in times like the soulful 70s and funk-filled early 80s?

Just wondering

[ March 11, 2003, 03:42 PM: Message edited by: darrow ]

[GROOVE VICTIM]

Originally posted by darrow:
So I'm at the gym this morning being visually assaulted by rock music videos (way too much angst for 630am) and started wondering about something.

My perception is that in the Rock world, there is often an appreciation of and following of musicians...that there is an awareness of and following of the drummer or guitar player or keyboardists, etc. Aside from jazz (and even then I'm not sure about that world), it doesn't seem like there is an equivalent thing embraced by the Black music culture today. Why is that?

Has the presence of technology made musicians in black culture obsolete? Is there more at work? Economics maybe? Maybe we can't afford music lessons or maybe schools can't offer music lessons, meaning the appreciation of musicians isn't fostered at a young age or maybe it is just not economically feasible to hire musicians for recordings? Has there ever really been an appreciation and following of musicians, even in times like the soulful 70s and funk-filled early 80s?

Just wondering

Good question. Does it make black musicians obselete. HELLLZZZZZ NO!!! I'm a black musician.

There are many problems that should be addressed.

Black Music History in our schools and in our homes.

Teaching young black and latino kids outside of church that you can appreciate genres of music such as classical, rock, jazz, and disco. The reason I said outside of church is because many of the young musicians in church have an advantage and are easy to get them to listen to other genres of music.


Like MHD told me a few months ago, each one teach one.


Peace

[Fletch]

I will give my theory as to the decline of Black Musicianship

I do believe that when the synthesiser was invented, musicians marvelled at its versatility, with the ability to sound like a whole bunch of instruments. Musicians thought it would be a supplement to their musicianship/bands, etc.

But the industry had other ideas. The industry found that the synthesiser, along with the sampler, were ways of cutting costs of musicians. They now thought that they didn't have to deal with expensive, sometimes late, sometimes drunk, sometimes coked or sometimes diva headed studio cats. So as a result, the synthesiser and sampler put a lot of cats out of work.

And as a result of the synth wildfire of the 80s, studio systems in Detroit, Memphis, Chicago, Miami, Muscle Shoals, Phladelphia and even New York either went under or fell on hard times. Nashville was the only city to survive the onslaught. In fact, many famous studio musicians (i.e. Bob Babbit, Willie Weeks, David Hungate) relocated to Nashville from their big city studio gigs.

Add to that the rise of hip hop, and you got a whole bunch of Black records with no musicianship.

Some suggestions for recent Black bands:
a) Toni Toni Tone albums: "Sons Of Soul" and "House Of Music". Hopefully, they'll get back together.
b) Ledisi. "Soulsinger", "Feeling Orange, Sometimes Blue". Best alto voice in 20 years, along with all tunes band backed by the Braxton Brothers
c) Tommy Simms: "Peace and Love (2000)". Find this album! Perfect productions. Musicianship is off the chain.
d) The Roots: Amir may be the best drummer in the business:
e) D'Angelo: "Voodoo". The musicianship is better than Brown Sugar. He's got Roy Hargrove, Charlie Hunter, Amir Thompson and Pino Palladino on that album.

[Fletch]

I got another suggestion.

Do you know that something as simple as reading album/CD credits go a long way in learning about musicians. If I don't read Luther and Grover's album credits as a kid, I would not know about cats like Marcus Miller, Steve Gadd or the late Yogi Horton.

And the more people read credits and learn about musicians, the more of a demand there will be for musicianship.

Albums are more than just the singer, y'all. Anyone know why Luther albums aren't selling like the old ones. Think about it. Peace.

[djmarbll]

Great point about Luther. Marcus Miller and Nat Adderly were the foundation of Luther's sound in the 80's, when he was making those classic albums.

[mdpm99]

IMHO:

I like where this thread is going.

[img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

d

[ March 11, 2003, 10:38 PM: Message edited by: david mancuso ]

[Nege]

Originally posted by darrow:
Has the presence of technology made musicians in black culture obsolete? Is there more at work? Economics maybe? Maybe we can't afford music lessons or maybe schools can't offer music lessons, meaning the appreciation of musicians isn't fostered at a young age or maybe it is just not economically feasible to hire musicians for recordings? Has there ever really been an appreciation and following of musicians, even in times like the soulful 70s and funk-filled early 80s?

Just wondering

It's cheaper to make a record with less or no Musicians,
not saying that it is a good thing but that seems to be one of the main reasons that ther is lack of musicians in todays music.
and the sad thing about it is that with the technology, anyone who has no form of musical training can attemp to try and make a record.
( some can get away with it but it's far and few between)

Notice how most music from the 70s and 80s and even the early 90s has more staying power than stuff that has been done in the last 8 years?
and why do most people today rely on lifting riffs , melodies ,lyrics from older music to make new music? Or even an actual older recording for that matter?
(rhetorical questions)
technology makes things faster and easier for most ,
unfortunately it is misused and overused often.

[ March 12, 2003, 12:10 AM: Message edited by: Eneg ]

[dennis f]

here it goes.....

There has not been a decline of Black Musicianship and an overall lack of awareness in musicians in our field...why? because it's happenned in every field...from rock on down to country....The music field as a whole has and is suffering. Due to medium format specifics, economic anomolies, new demographics and a lack of awareness and morality by PD's and advertisors along side of the companies they represent. I see it as more of a societal decline that has affected the music industry as a whole.
For example....We all (meaning all of us in the Dance industry) wish we had the exposure, air time, event venues, corporate sponsorships that our brothers in music have in the so called Rock/Grunge world....to be known and adored by thousands right? To have videos on Mtv right?
Well to pique my interest I decided to go see one of these bands who were playing here in NYC this Monday. PaPa Roach...an amazing band..great entertainers..Moshin' in the pit and the whole nine..Mtv generation style! Now do you know these guys have been around for about 10 yrs.? The album is doing incredible and there videos are all over Mtv....wanna know how many people were jammed into Irving Plaza?


NO MORE THAN 250~~~!!!!!!

And this being promoted and sponsored by Clear Channel!!! The mofo's who run half the nations radio stations!!! Go figure........It seems the only way these bands can pack an event is by sharing the bill on like an Ozzfest with 15 bands!! But we as a public only see the footage of their alloted time and think 15,000 people came to see them play!!

just a mirage...folks...

So guess what sort of thinking was left to ramble through my head?

I figured we must be all hurting! Doesn't matter who...things are only looking rosy if you've been grandfathered in to this generation from a slew of hits you had at least 8 years ago.

On the issue of musicians vs. samplers and synths....

I believe that technology in one way has hurt the record business. Now I do play keys and play 90 percent of all the stuff on my tunes but I'm no Herbie Hancock... and I even can admit to technology making it too easy for everyone to make records. In there gluttonious corporate bottom line thinking (which means **** the pros we'll market samplers and synths to the average joe!) they (meaning synth manufacturers) managed to almost destroy any independent label's and top flight producers alongside with studios chances at making the money they deserve. How do you say? Well...look at the situation we face now...How many records are handed to you to check out on a weekly basis and what is the ratio that you wind up actually buying? I can honestly say that to me and many prominent figures in NYC that the agreeable amount is at about 25 to 1!!! This indirectly affects record sales and the amount distributors are willing to commit to. Thereby cutting into the amount they are willing to pay out to purchase a production and affecting the amount a producer has available to pay musicians, singers or what have you for this said production. This now affects the overall quality of the music. I heard a good saying yesterday from a friend who said " ...Yo...i'ma bout to ask this singer if she could do this track on credit!!" It's bad when ya gotta finance the singer!!!
Now you say...competition is good right? Well I do agree with that point to a certain extent...but distributors are feeling the itch and so are stores....so in their rightful quest to make money they've gotta push as much product as possible and if it means filling your head up with "yo.,..this track is the shit right now" then so be it!! No matter if it was made in some guys closet and the vocals are out of tune with the track. Now how many of those have we seen in the last year??!! Hence the overall decline of the quality of music being played, promoted and manufactured...Now in defense of not so fortunate people like myself who don't have a Hit Factory in my house..You either make good quality music(doesn't have to be a hit nor does everyone have to like it) or you make noise! Bottom line.
To make my point....It's a food chain event...and not many people can quite grasp this idea. It's not one group or another, it's not a genre's fault. They've just put alot of professional amazing good people out of business when the synth manufacturers wanted more money and saw the demographics needed to accomplish that. Haven't you noticed that all the gear coming out now are either a. workstations or b. hip hop oriented loop based drum pad software/hardware? Any fool with $500 bucks can now buy some software/hardware and walk into Atlantic and say.."Yo I want a production deal ....I make beats!" and Voila ya got the next so and so and he/she will be drivin' around their block in a new Hummer and parking it in projects Housing parking lot!! I've seen with my very own eyes....

In reality...all we can do though is lament..we wanted pandoras box...so they built it...we openened it and now we've got nerve to bitch about it......

"Don't hate the player....Hate the game!!..."
I'm hatin' big time right now!!!!!!!

my 2cents
peace
dee!

[Nege]

[ March 12, 2003, 12:41 AM: Message edited by: Eneg ]

[Bold Soul]

IMO, it isn't any easier to record an album with synths than it is with session musicians. It definitely isn't less expensive.

To tune a synth patch to closely emulate a "natural" instrument, such as a flute, one will spend upwards of $100.00US for a sample disk with the waveforms for the instrument, two hours loading and tweaking mod and velocity settings, another couple of hours waveform editing the samples when tweaking doesn't work out right and a number of hours recording. In my lab, that is around 1200.00US in time and expenses.

A session flutist would set me back around 500.00US for the day - and that is a top notch flutist. No tweaking, no quantizing, no user grooves, no grunging or humanizing - just total human output, take after take.

Certainly, there are more musicians producing some sort of album projects in their basements and bedrooms, but as the amount of content has INCREASED, available distribution channels have DECREASED via media consolidation.

Technical innovation hasn't hurt musicianship - inability to make a quality living in this climate of oversaturation, copy-cat production and marketing and media consolidation have been much more to the detriment of the craft.

[dennis f]

Bold soul

that's because you've passed the point of no return!!! You've ventured into the pro world...Welcome!

No dissrespect.....
But to average joe who's supplied with 3 gigs of sounds on a dvd for his sampler that some kid fresh out of college and now heads Atlantic Record label's A&R positions' never heard...who got the better deal you or that kid who just got 125k to produce the next Murder Inc. album? Do the math!! Remember A&R and average joe don't care if you used a 30k Pro-Tools HD192 setup or Acid!!! Only people like you and I give a crap!!
And we get to moan about it!!


BTW...You pay too much..I'm sending some guys over to you...cause your so generous!!!

500 for a flutist session..bruh!! even at scale it's only 350!!! and that's for amazing cats with deals from very prominent labels...

and most will do it at 250 to avoid union crap!!

Take more time making music not being a scientist.....haha!!

peace
dee

[darrow]

Thanks for the responses.

I'm still wondering about the cultural aspects of following musicians (especially in the Rock world). Do you think black kids ever grew up in significant numbers thinking "I want to be a guitar player like (insert name here)!" I remember wanting to be the next Noel Pointer but I was definitely in the minority (of the minority) when it came to a) wanting to play an instrument and/or b) idolizing someone who did play an instrument. I'm thinking that maybe that desire...that appreciation/adoration...of musicians is simply not something that is part of our experience, at least not over the past 20 to 30 years. What do you think?

I agree definitely that technology has changed the way music is composed and performed. I'm sure it has had profound affects on the ability to manage costs, time (no coordinating with a bunch of other musicians) and resources (hardware, software, and people). A competent, fairly intelligent person with a keyboard, sampler, and sequencer software can compose and perform without ever having anyone ever pluck a string, bang a drum, or humm a tune.

For those that have kids or at least have kids around them who are in inner city schools, are they exposed to music lessons, school bands, and orchestras? I ask that because i went to a suburban school where there were decent music programs (funded by decent money) but when I wanted to transfer to a city school, those programs were almost non-existent.

[ March 12, 2003, 08:51 AM: Message edited by: darrow ]

[martino]

i'm not too sure about the cultural direction of this topic. Most top RnB bands (Mary J's, Brian Mcknights, Jill Scott etc) have all black band members. Many who come out of Berklee and other places like that (not cheap!). And theyre all killer musicians, and there seems to be enough musicians to get these gigs across north america. Maybe there are less black musicians these days, but not out of proportion to whites. Turntables are outselling guitars across the board/world. i think your observation has truth to it, but i'm not sure i see it the very same way personally.

And i gotta say one thing about technology. Chord progressions and melodies aren't presets. Thats why you either got the talent to lay out your music yourself or you gotta hire someone who does. Still cant cut the musicianship out. Though there are many kids making shitloads of money cause they stumble across loop a and mix it with loop b, musicianship is still integral, and those producers with talent are the ones that create music that lasts. In my opinion nice chords and melody outlasts a sampled groove without question.

[darrow]

Originally posted by martino:
i'm not too sure about the cultural direction of this topic. Most top RnB bands (Mary J's, Brian Mcknights, Jill Scott etc) have all black band members. Many who come out of Berklee and other places like that (not cheap!). And theyre all killer musicians, and there seems to be enough musicians to get these gigs across north america. Maybe there are less black musicians these days, but not out of proportion to whites. Turntables are outselling guitars across the board/world. i think your observation has truth to it, but i'm not sure i see it the very same way personally.

And i gotta say one thing about technology. Chord progressions and melodies aren't presets. Thats why you either got the talent to lay out your music yourself or you gotta hire someone who does. Still cant cut the musicianship out. Though there are many kids making shitloads of money cause they stumble across loop a and mix it with loop b, musicianship is still integral, and those producers with talent are the ones that create music that lasts. In my opinion nice chords and melody outlasts a sampled groove without question.

Thanks.

Which observation of mine are you referring to?

I hadn't really intended the theme to be "are there more white musicians than black ones?". I think what I've been trying to get a sense of (and I'm not articulating it very well probably) is the feeling or thought that I had after seeing those Rock videos. What I felt when watching the videos was that there doesn't seem to be a soulful-music equivalent to the band member adoration that accompanies the Rock scene. Though there may be musicians that support Jill Scott, Mary J, and others, there doesn't seem to be a group of primarily young kids who follow and know those band members. We don't really have band groupies I guess is what I was thinking. That thought sort of led me to asking the previous questions in an attempt to clarify and understand that thought.

I'm doing a horrible job of articulating, so i'm just gonna be quiet. Thanks for the responses!

[img]smile.gif[/img]

[larry rauson]

No Offense to anyone, but every response in this thread is so full of shit that it's incredible. Yaa'll lamenting the demise of musicians to the synthesizers, distribution channels, media outlets, all bullshit...you wanna see and hear musicianship, get off ayour asses and go somewhere other than the shelter...especially in NY, get your life open, everything musical is not going to be handed to you, sometimes you got to look


Larry P. Rauson, Saxophonist

[darrow]

Originally posted by larry rauson:
No Offense to anyone, but every response in this thread is so full of shit that it's incredible. Yaa'll lamenting the demise of musicians to the synthesizers, distribution channels, media outlets, all bullshit...you wanna see and hear musicianship, get off ayour asses and go somewhere other than the shelter...especially in NY, get your life open, everything musical is not going to be handed to you, sometimes you got to look


Larry P. Rauson, Saxophonist

my first reponse would be..."ummmm....errr...huh?" Somehow you arrived at the assumption that we..actually, I'll just speak for myself...I...don't go to see musicians and that I'm waiting for something to be handed to me. You sure you read this thread?

Not offended at all. Confused maybe.

[Nege]

Originally posted by darrow:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by larry rauson:
No Offense to anyone, but every response in this thread is so full of shit that it's incredible. Yaa'll lamenting the demise of musicians to the synthesizers, distribution channels, media outlets, all bullshit...you wanna see and hear musicianship, get off ayour asses and go somewhere other than the shelter...especially in NY, get your life open, everything musical is not going to be handed to you, sometimes you got to look


Larry P. Rauson, Saxophonist

my first reponse would be..."ummmm....errr...huh?" Somehow you arrived at the assumption that we..actually, I'll just speak for myself...I...don't go to see musicians and that I'm waiting for something to be handed to me. You sure you read this thread?

</font>[/QUOTE]Ditto,
don't assume things larry .

Assume = making an Ass out of U and Me

[ March 12, 2003, 12:19 PM: Message edited by: Eneg ]

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by larry rauson:
No Offense to anyone, but every response in this thread is so full of shit that it's incredible. Yaa'll lamenting the demise of musicians to the synthesizers, distribution channels, media outlets, all bullshit...you wanna see and hear musicianship, get off ayour asses and go somewhere other than the shelter...especially in NY, get your life open, everything musical is not going to be handed to you, sometimes you got to look


Larry P. Rauson, Saxophonist

Saying "no offense" to a person is like saying "trust me" to a person.

Offense taken. ;)

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by dennis f:
Bold soul

that's because you've passed the point of no return!!! You've ventured into the pro world...Welcome!

No dissrespect.....
But to average joe who's supplied with 3 gigs of sounds on a dvd for his sampler that some kid fresh out of college and now heads Atlantic Record label's A&R positions' never heard...who got the better deal you or that kid who just got 125k to produce the next Murder Inc. album? Do the math!! Remember A&R and average joe don't care if you used a 30k Pro-Tools HD192 setup or Acid!!! Only people like you and I give a crap!!
And we get to moan about it!!


BTW...You pay too much..I'm sending some guys over to you...cause your so generous!!!

500 for a flutist session..bruh!! even at scale it's only 350!!! and that's for amazing cats with deals from very prominent labels...

and most will do it at 250 to avoid union crap!!

Take more time making music not being a scientist.....haha!!

peace
dee

Just because people come cheap doesn't mean they should be treated cheaply. ;) Besides, after you pay to feed everyone and have a good time afterward, the cash outlay is around the same.

And I used Acid for around 5 minutes, until the repetition started driving me crazy. :D

[mhd]

if your point of reference is rock videos, then there is no comparison, as a medium, videos have distorted reality. if your point of reference is an appreciation of live performance, then the appreciation of musicianship is alive and well. As far as black musicians, you got to look at the Roots, Lenny Kravitz and those groups einnod mentioned, otherwise you got to look at the jazz camp where young cats are nurtured and their talents are developed, but nowadays, that is a somewhat insular world and mtv has not corrupted/exposed it yet.

but make no mistake, the love for skilled musicians has never wavered in our community, and videos are a poor measure of that regard, an exception of course is BET on Jazz

[konbit]

I don't see this as a problem with black musicianship....but musicianship in general. Where are the songwriters? How many people have a solid background in music theory? I would argue that even rock musicians lack this knowledge...or else we'd be hearing much more interesting rock music.

I find the synthesizer explanation inadequate. There would be a lot more talented piano/keyboard players around if this explanation held true.

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by konbit:
I don't see this as a problem with black musicianship....but musicianship in general. Where are the songwriters? How many people have a solid background in music theory? I would argue that even rock musicians lack this knowledge...or else we'd be hearing much more interesting rock music.

I find the synthesizer explanation inadequate. There would be a lot more talented piano/keyboard players around if this explanation held true.

I don't know how much music theory is required to be an innovative musician. Just a well rounded appreciation of music and solid fundamentals are what I believe to be the best assets.

Film and music theorists make a living deriving "after the fact" trivia from completed compositions - 90% of which aren't a part of the original artist's intentions. I read American Film Journal...on the toilet. ;)

[darrow]

Originally posted by mhd:
if your point of reference is rock videos, then there is no comparison, as a medium, videos have distorted reality. if your point of reference is an appreciation of live performance, then the appreciation of musicianship is alive and well. As far as black musicians, you got to look at the Roots, Lenny Kravitz and those groups einnod mentioned, otherwise you got to look at the jazz camp where young cats are nurtured and their talents are developed, but nowadays, that is a somewhat insular world and mtv has not corrupted/exposed it yet.

but make no mistake, the love for skilled musicians has never wavered in our community, and videos are a poor measure of that regard, an exception of course is BET on Jazz

Thanks, Mark.

The videos spawned the topic but they arent my frame of reference. I've wondered about this topic to myself prior to watching the videos.

Also, I'm not asking whether we do or do not love skilled black musicians.

After reading the thread, my posts and other responses, I've tried to focus my thoughts on the very specific phenomena of band fans/groupies and musician fans/groupies...those who can name band members or rattle of personal statistics about band members or follow them around the country like happy little puppies or who emulate them by trying to be like them, even to the extent of wanting to learn an instrument. This seems to be most prevalent in the young, white male Rock music fan world if anywhere. There doesn't seem to be an equivalent to that in black culture is what I was thinking. If there is a difference in HOW we show our appreciation and passion (whether it be following someone to the ends of the earth, buying their music, or knowing all their personal stuff), my natural thought was...why the difference? What are the factors that cause the difference? IS there a difference?

None of my questions or thoughts should be interpreted as me having issues with black music culture or that I'm feeling like there is something that isn't happening that should be happening.

You have touched on something that does in some ways answer some of my thoughts. You mention

the jazz camp where young cats are nurtured and their talents are developed, but nowadays, that is a somewhat insular world and mtv has not corrupted/exposed it yet

...

I wonder if that insular nature means a broader young black audience does not get exposed to the world of those types of musicians, meaning there is naturally less chance of fostering understanding and appreciation of their craft?

[Balactus]

i don't know if black musicianship has waned. but it does seem to me that the black street has definately lost an appreciation for live musicianship. maybe the question should be whatever happened to the black bands? they are there but definately not like b4.

w

[Balactus]

[/QUOTE]
I wonder if that insular nature means a broader young black audience does not get exposed to the world of those types of musicians, meaning there is naturally less chance of fostering understanding and appreciation of their craft? [/QB][/QUOTE]
I do think that black culture has become insular in that a lot of young black people don't know anything about black music that's not hip hop. i remember in high school this black girl asked me if i listened to any black music while i was giving her a ride home. i had to inform her that she was listening to funkadelic an all black band. i've also had classmates ask me about jimi hendrix. i don't know it's just a general state of ignorance.
but maybe that's systemic of every generation i don't know i'm not old enough.

w