Is it okay to torture Al Qaida mastermind?

[der geile hund]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
Seriously angry thoughts...

Where the heck is all this PEACE that needs to be preserved? Where is it?

It isn't where I live. It isn't where anyone I know lives. Everyone I know doesn't have peace in their city, in their neighborhood, on their block - hell, IN THEIR HOUSE!

Everywhere I go, I see no peace. I see no peace in the companies I do business with. I see no peace in the relationships I have. I see no peace among those who espouse peace.

I'll give peace a chance when you overweight, good time, euphoria addicted sloths show it to me. Until then, if I want to eat, I have to wage war in business. If I want to advance in my career, I have to wage war in the industry. If I want to be a good father and patriarch, I have to wage war on several different fronts.

Tell some of these German peaceniks to stop calling my nephew "AMERICAN NIGGER" in his school and on the playground in Frankfurt. Give peace a chance in the German Principal's Office.

When one decides to develop and approach their own greatness, it isn't a matter of WILL they have enemies, but what they will do to vanquish their enemies.

In this game, there are many players but only one big blue ball. Don't hate the player...hate the game.

Comparing the corporate world to actual war is laughable as well.

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by der geile hund:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
Seriously angry thoughts...

Where the heck is all this PEACE that needs to be preserved? Where is it?

It isn't where I live. It isn't where anyone I know lives. Everyone I know doesn't have peace in their city, in their neighborhood, on their block - hell, IN THEIR HOUSE!

Everywhere I go, I see no peace. I see no peace in the companies I do business with. I see no peace in the relationships I have. I see no peace among those who espouse peace.

I'll give peace a chance when you overweight, good time, euphoria addicted sloths show it to me. Until then, if I want to eat, I have to wage war in business. If I want to advance in my career, I have to wage war in the industry. If I want to be a good father and patriarch, I have to wage war on several different fronts.

Tell some of these German peaceniks to stop calling my nephew "AMERICAN NIGGER" in his school and on the playground in Frankfurt. Give peace a chance in the German Principal's Office.

When one decides to develop and approach their own greatness, it isn't a matter of WILL they have enemies, but what they will do to vanquish their enemies.

In this game, there are many players but only one big blue ball. Don't hate the player...hate the game.

Comparing your nephew getting called bad names to actual war is laughable.</font>[/QUOTE]Only as laughable as your lack of a sense of irony. Please tell me than my Yankee sense of prose did not go over your head.

Hypocrites all. Each nation on this earth has enjoyed a period of dominance. The USA is now enjoying its time on top. Life goes on.

[flypitcher]

Should the Ticking Bomb terrorist be tortured?

"Firstly, is torture ever just? By what rules am I making my judgement (strong, weak, none). If it is just,
how are we to determine when and to what point we can establish that it's OK to torture? In other
words, is it possible for man to establish a universal law stating an "it depends on the case" law about
torture? Finally, what does Justice prevent us from doing if we allow torture? Does it prevent
anything?



Arguably one response could be: To act justly is to maximise the benefit for the greatest possible
number. The moral agent firstly decides to torture the terrorist in order to obtain the information that
allows to disarm the ticking bomb, thus saving thousands of people.

Secondly the moral agent asks
for a trial, pleads guilty to torture (and if the terrorist died also guilty of man-slaughter or murder
depending on the circumstances ) and accepts the full punishment of the law for his case, thus saving
the community from the idea that torture is acceptable."

dug this quote out for your nourishment.

[richierich]

Totrure??? Just tell his ass to keep looking in the damn mirror, that should be torture enough!!!

[ngeso]

some of this stuff being said is making me sick to my stomach. [img]graemlins/puke.gif[/img]

[mhd]

Originally posted by flypitcher:
Should the Ticking Bomb terrorist be tortured?

"Firstly, is torture ever just? By what rules am I making my judgement (strong, weak, none). If it is just,
how are we to determine when and to what point we can establish that it's OK to torture? In other
words, is it possible for man to establish a universal law stating an "it depends on the case" law about
torture? Finally, what does Justice prevent us from doing if we allow torture? Does it prevent
anything?



Arguably one response could be: To act justly is to maximise the benefit for the greatest possible
number. The moral agent firstly decides to torture the terrorist in order to obtain the information that
allows to disarm the ticking bomb, thus saving thousands of people.

Secondly the moral agent asks
for a trial, pleads guilty to torture (and if the terrorist died also guilty of man-slaughter or murder
depending on the circumstances ) and accepts the full punishment of the law for his case, thus saving
the community from the idea that torture is acceptable."

dug this quote out for your nourishment.

very interesting scenario, the way it is portrayed, the assumption is the "terrorist" is a criminal and the interrogators represent a just society and the casualties would be "innocent victims". i guess you could call Columbus and George Washington and George Custer terrorists. i wonder how this scenario plays out if you put the Japanese in WWII as the interrogators and the captured pilots of the Enola Gay as the prisoners. (Enola Gay was the plane that dropped the bomb on Hiroshima) Would it be okay to torture them?

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by mhd:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by flypitcher:
Should the Ticking Bomb terrorist be tortured?

"Firstly, is torture ever just? By what rules am I making my judgement (strong, weak, none). If it is just,
how are we to determine when and to what point we can establish that it's OK to torture? In other
words, is it possible for man to establish a universal law stating an "it depends on the case" law about
torture? Finally, what does Justice prevent us from doing if we allow torture? Does it prevent
anything?



Arguably one response could be: To act justly is to maximise the benefit for the greatest possible
number. The moral agent firstly decides to torture the terrorist in order to obtain the information that
allows to disarm the ticking bomb, thus saving thousands of people.

Secondly the moral agent asks
for a trial, pleads guilty to torture (and if the terrorist died also guilty of man-slaughter or murder
depending on the circumstances ) and accepts the full punishment of the law for his case, thus saving
the community from the idea that torture is acceptable."

dug this quote out for your nourishment.

very interesting scenario, the way it is portrayed, the assumption is the "terrorist" is a criminal and the interrogators represent a just society and the casualties would be "innocent victims". i guess you could call Columbus and George Washington and George Custer terrorists. i wonder how this scenario plays out if you put the Japanese in WWII as the interrogators and the captured pilots of the Enola Gay as the prisoners. (Enola Gay was the plane that dropped the bomb on Hiroshima) Would it be okay to torture them?</font>[/QUOTE]Perception.

[imported_Gman]

Originally posted by Recondo:
You people make me f u c k i n g sick. I am sitting here actually about to vomit from reading your f u c k i n g bulls h i t.

57% say no torture? F U C K you and your high f u c k i n g horse, b i t c h e s!!!

I can understand the peace movement, they don't want a war-that is really understandable and I can even agree with some of their ideas. But whether or not we torture the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks to get information from him? S h i t, we should f u c k i n g torture him for fun. We should f u c k i n g put him in Times Square for 2004 New Years and light him up instead of the ball! There is NO f u c k i n g debate over this you morons...the damage from 9/11 has been felt ten-fold. Just listen to the sorry, broke ass m o t h e r f u c k e r s on this board alone and you know what's up. Torture him, cook him and eat him, kill him, dis-member ande dis-embowel him for all I care. You are the f u c k i n g heartless ones who have forgotten the day the towers fell and that is why you will never be able to feel like real Americans for the rest of your sorry lives.

I feel sick because of you, absolutely sick you mangy, flea-bitten mongrols.

Recondo, not that you care but you have to try to follow the rules on this board. Timeout goes to you.

-G

[mhd]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by mhd:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by flypitcher:
Should the Ticking Bomb terrorist be tortured?

"Firstly, is torture ever just? By what rules am I making my judgement (strong, weak, none). If it is just,
how are we to determine when and to what point we can establish that it's OK to torture? In other
words, is it possible for man to establish a universal law stating an "it depends on the case" law about
torture? Finally, what does Justice prevent us from doing if we allow torture? Does it prevent
anything?



Arguably one response could be: To act justly is to maximise the benefit for the greatest possible
number. The moral agent firstly decides to torture the terrorist in order to obtain the information that
allows to disarm the ticking bomb, thus saving thousands of people.

Secondly the moral agent asks
for a trial, pleads guilty to torture (and if the terrorist died also guilty of man-slaughter or murder
depending on the circumstances ) and accepts the full punishment of the law for his case, thus saving
the community from the idea that torture is acceptable."

dug this quote out for your nourishment.

very interesting scenario, the way it is portrayed, the assumption is the "terrorist" is a criminal and the interrogators represent a just society and the casualties would be "innocent victims". i guess you could call Columbus and George Washington and George Custer terrorists. i wonder how this scenario plays out if you put the Japanese in WWII as the interrogators and the captured pilots of the Enola Gay as the prisoners. (Enola Gay was the plane that dropped the bomb on Hiroshima) Would it be okay to torture them?</font>[/QUOTE]Perception.</font>[/QUOTE]Perpesctive

[MC]

Hang that MO FO in Town Square!!!

[mhd]

Originally posted by Michael J. Carmona:
Hang that MO FO in Town Square!!!

just like back in the good ol' days!!

[Bold Soul]

Perception is onerous, however there is no shortage of perceptory comments regarding current events.

As an individual, it is important for me to zero in on those issues that effect self first, community second and nation third. To make snap judgements based on the propaganda that masquerades as pro or anti US action is, in my opinion, irresponsible and undercuts true issues that should be addressed.

I have learned much about the regard many from other nations have toward US citizens and I am not encouraged to enjoin in relationships abroad because of it. Enjoying the freedoms of US citizenry doesn't make you an enemy of civil liberties. I, for one, have had enough of the stone-slinging on the DHP toward Americans. I will not burn a flag to be your friend.

Take it with a grain of salt.

[Dr. Freud]

A short essay written by James Dunningham, Korean War veteran, military historian, who helps to design "wargames" for the U.S. Army:

"Torture is a subject bound to come up in war - especially a war centering on terrorists. Does torture work? It depends. It depends on who is asking the questions and who is being asked.

An expert interrogator can get information out of almost anyone. But there are many people who resist torture unto death. While some people respond more to torture than to psychological pressure, the widespread use of torture is generally an indication of a lack of experienced interrogators.

This is the situation facing the United States now. With more than a thousand, mainly Arab, al Qaeda suspects in custody, America doesn't have enough experienced, Arab-speaking interrogators to get much out of these suspects. Some of these hard-core terrorist suspects may talk under torture, but true believers tend to resist physical pressure well.

For thousands of years, torture was a common practice. But a lot of that torture was done not just to obtain information, but more often to terrorize a population or, as fans of violent sports are reluctant to admit, there's entertainment value. The 20th century brought the scientific method to bear on the use of torture. When the objective was mainly to obtain information, be it military secrets or a confession from someone innocent of a crime, then many new forms of torture were developed, perfected and widely used. But one constant was the need for an expert interrogator.

This has long been recognized. The infamous medieval Inquisition used a lot more quiet questioning than it did gruesome forms of physical torture. The 20th century torturers also perfected the art of psychological torture. The best criminal investigators have a large bag of interrogation techniques, which often obtain the desired information without any physical contact with the suspect.

The Soviet Union, over its seven decades of existence, literally wrote the book on non-physical torture. Part of this was due to the nature of the communist nations. They were police states and were constantly on the lookout for disloyalty. But the Soviet Union had another major advantage; it was able to create thousands of expert, career interrogators. These were men, and a few women, who spent decades perfecting their skills. The Soviet Union had several college level institutions that amassed and passed on vast amounts of knowledge and technique in the use of physical and psychological torture.

Despite the considerable skills of the communist interrogators, they were not always able to get the information, or confessions, they wanted. World War II saw an enormous amount of torture. The Nazis, who openly admired the superior interrogation skills of the Soviets, were more prone to use poorly trained investigators who went to physical torture quickly. The results were often dismal. Thousands of Russian and Allied victims took their secrets to their (usually unmarked) graves. The Soviets proved that, if you have the time (weeks or months) and skilled interrogators, you can break just about anyone. As for the few who resisted everything, a bullet in the back of the head was the usual result. The Soviet interrogators were not good losers.

One of the Soviet techniques that got more attention than success was the use of drugs to loosen tongues. The classic "truth serum" is sodium pentothal, which is basically an anesthetic. Much earlier, booze or drugs were used, with some success, to get people to loosen up and talk. Female spies have long used erotic behavior and sex to get men to spill secrets. Using anesthetics has the advantage of being administered in more controlled doses.

During the first few decades of the Cold War, there was something of a "drug race" between the United States and the Soviet Union to develop more effective drugs for use as interrogation tools. LSD, heroin and many exotic chemicals were used in the search for the perfect truth serum. There were no breakthroughs, but many people in the interrogation business still keep an eye on new developments in anesthesia.

And there are new things worth watching. Many new anesthetics don't knock you out as much as they put you in an altered state where you don't notice, or simply don't remember, the pain. Doctors often warn patients that they may want to use another form of anesthetic, because these new ones (using combinations of tranquilizers and sedatives in an IV drip) have a tendency to cause people to say things they'd rather keep secret. No one has admitted to using these new anesthetics for interrogation, probably considering success in this area as a valuable military secret. Or perhaps there is simply worry that such use will simply be outlawed for interrogation.

But when you have to get critical information in a hurry, like where a terrorist group has hidden a bomb (perhaps a small nuclear one) or biological weapon, most people will not quibble about the use of torture. In this case it is literally a matter of life or death. For this reason, most intelligence agencies stay current on torture techniques. Just in case."

-peace

[ March 04, 2003, 05:28 PM: Message edited by: Dr. Freud ]

[mhd]

so to be an effective torturer, you would have to study and emulate the soviets and the nazis...now that's patriotic

[mhd]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
Perception is onerous, however there is no shortage of perceptory comments regarding current events.

As an individual, it is important for me to zero in on those issues that effect self first, community second and nation third. To make snap judgements based on the propaganda that masquerades as pro or anti US action is, in my opinion, irresponsible and undercuts true issues that should be addressed.

I have learned much about the regard many from other nations have toward US citizens and I am not encouraged to enjoin in relationships abroad because of it. Enjoying the freedoms of US citizenry doesn't make you an enemy of civil liberties. I, for one, have had enough of the stone-slinging on the DHP toward Americans. I will not burn a flag to be your friend.

Take it with a grain of salt.

and i would defend your right to not burn a flag. but the obvious must be stated: there is a huge difference between criticizing america and critcising americans. Bush and Ashcroft are about as un-american as you can get.

i cannot discount your nephews experience, but how would you feel if he were treated especially nice BECAUSE he was black and american.

btw, i respectfully defend my right to snap judgements, and his cousin, knee jerk reaction, as a right of citizenship

[ngeso]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
Perception is onerous, however there is no shortage of perceptory comments regarding current events.

As an individual, it is important for me to zero in on those issues that effect self first, community second and nation third. To make snap judgements based on the propaganda that masquerades as pro or anti US action is, in my opinion, irresponsible and undercuts true issues that should be addressed.

I have learned much about the regard many from other nations have toward US citizens and I am not encouraged to enjoin in relationships abroad because of it. Enjoying the freedoms of US citizenry doesn't make you an enemy of civil liberties. I, for one, have had enough of the stone-slinging on the DHP toward Americans. I will not burn a flag to be your friend.

Take it with a grain of salt.

i think it is safe to say that a sentiment such as yours goes both ways in these troubled times.

Bold Soul, who determines which are the true issues? and what is so difficult about coming to terms with issues of one people being different from those of another people? please consider that most of the people on this site, that are not US-citizens, go to great length to understand and come to terms with your culture, your society, your history. i dare say that those here that have the ability and the interest to engage in discussion on a site such as this (a site that distinguishes itself in an exemplary collective portrayal of insight and intelligence) do so by choice and by conviction.

we come here to talk about house music, and to voice our love for the artform and our respect for those that create it. and we engage on "your" terms. if this is a problem - tell us to leave, and we'll leave.

sincerely, ngeso okolo.

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by mhd:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
Perception is onerous, however there is no shortage of perceptory comments regarding current events.

As an individual, it is important for me to zero in on those issues that effect self first, community second and nation third. To make snap judgements based on the propaganda that masquerades as pro or anti US action is, in my opinion, irresponsible and undercuts true issues that should be addressed.

I have learned much about the regard many from other nations have toward US citizens and I am not encouraged to enjoin in relationships abroad because of it. Enjoying the freedoms of US citizenry doesn't make you an enemy of civil liberties. I, for one, have had enough of the stone-slinging on the DHP toward Americans. I will not burn a flag to be your friend.

Take it with a grain of salt.

and i would defend your right to not burn a flag. but the obvious must be stated: there is a huge difference between criticizing america and critcising americans. Bush and Ashcroft are about as un-american as you can get.

i cannot discount your nephews experience, but how would you feel if he were treated especially nice BECAUSE he was black and american.

btw, i respectfully defend my right to snap judgements, and his cousin, knee jerk reaction, as a right of citizenship</font>[/QUOTE]Indeed. As I also agree with your rights. I brought up my issue with my nephew's experience to provide an ironic indication of matters of perception and judgement that exist in the current climate of world opinion.

As far as the difference between criticizing America and criticizing Americans, I agree with this as well. If those with strong malformed opinions abroad understood this, there would be more dialog and less cast judgements to contend with, IMO.

BTW - you're either asserting the antecedent or begging the question with your question about how I would feel if my nephew was treated well for being Black and American. Play fair, mark. ;)

[ March 04, 2003, 06:47 PM: Message edited by: Bold Soul ]

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by ngeso:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
Perception is onerous, however there is no shortage of perceptory comments regarding current events.

As an individual, it is important for me to zero in on those issues that effect self first, community second and nation third. To make snap judgements based on the propaganda that masquerades as pro or anti US action is, in my opinion, irresponsible and undercuts true issues that should be addressed.

I have learned much about the regard many from other nations have toward US citizens and I am not encouraged to enjoin in relationships abroad because of it. Enjoying the freedoms of US citizenry doesn't make you an enemy of civil liberties. I, for one, have had enough of the stone-slinging on the DHP toward Americans. I will not burn a flag to be your friend.

Take it with a grain of salt.

i think it is safe to say that a sentiment such as yours goes both ways in these troubled times.

Bold Soul, who determines which are the true issues? and what is so difficult about coming to terms with issues of one people being different from those of another people? please consider that most of the people on this site, that are not US-citizens, go to great length to understand and come to terms with your culture, your society, your history. i dare say that those here that have the ability and the interest to engage in discussion on a site such as this (a site that distinguishes itself in an exemplary collective portrayal of insight and intelligence) do so by choice and by conviction.

we come here to talk about house music, and to voice our love for the artform and our respect for those that create it. and we engage on "your" terms. if this is a problem - tell us to leave, and we'll leave.

sincerely, ngeso okolo.</font>[/QUOTE]Not to argue, ngeso, but there is a bit more than house music and a universal point of view discussed on the DHP. My original issue with this thread was that we are all operating on tainted propaganda masquerading as news and information. Judgements in either direction are, in this climate of misinformation, folly. This is my opinion.

To express one's opinion from an American POV is, to some "househeads" tantamount to agreeing with the actions of the current administration. People love to generalize - no matter which side of the ocean you live.

It isn't the right to the opinion that earns my distaste. Just the generalization and misinformation.

As far as true issues, there are many of them, and we are all colluded. Check out the R. Kelly album post for starters. There are more - real issues that effect real people. Honestly, I am much more worried about recent tax cuts and the erosion of domestic agenda than I am about a Iraqi despot's comeuppance. No one is posting anything angry about that, though.

Face it - your communities are poor, your educational systems are taking a powerful hit DAILY, your civil rights as citizens are being compromised on a daily basis but none of you are more safe. Your local politicians and activists are standing behind crooked club owners who share crooked money and CLASSISM has retaken the populace of most capitalistic democracies.

But you all want to crack wise about torture and bombs.

As I said - bunch of snotty hypocrites, none of which have a pot to piss in but want to debate what they read in political rags. Shameful.

[ March 04, 2003, 06:43 PM: Message edited by: Bold Soul ]

[Bold Soul]

...

[ March 04, 2003, 06:43 PM: Message edited by: Bold Soul ]

[konbit]

Does nobody see the irony in so-called patriots supporting something that goes against every idea this country was built on. I recommend going back and re-reading your Enlightenment Era literature...with an emphasis on human and natural rights.

[Dr. Freud]

Originally posted by mhd:
so to be an effective torturer, you would have to study and emulate the soviets and the nazis...now that's patriotic

What does patriotism have to do with torture?

[ngeso]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ngeso:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
Perception is onerous, however there is no shortage of perceptory comments regarding current events.

As an individual, it is important for me to zero in on those issues that effect self first, community second and nation third. To make snap judgements based on the propaganda that masquerades as pro or anti US action is, in my opinion, irresponsible and undercuts true issues that should be addressed.

I have learned much about the regard many from other nations have toward US citizens and I am not encouraged to enjoin in relationships abroad because of it. Enjoying the freedoms of US citizenry doesn't make you an enemy of civil liberties. I, for one, have had enough of the stone-slinging on the DHP toward Americans. I will not burn a flag to be your friend.

Take it with a grain of salt.

i think it is safe to say that a sentiment such as yours goes both ways in these troubled times.

Bold Soul, who determines which are the true issues? and what is so difficult about coming to terms with issues of one people being different from those of another people? please consider that most of the people on this site, that are not US-citizens, go to great length to understand and come to terms with your culture, your society, your history. i dare say that those here that have the ability and the interest to engage in discussion on a site such as this (a site that distinguishes itself in an exemplary collective portrayal of insight and intelligence) do so by choice and by conviction.

we come here to talk about house music, and to voice our love for the artform and our respect for those that create it. and we engage on "your" terms. if this is a problem - tell us to leave, and we'll leave.

sincerely, ngeso okolo.</font>[/QUOTE]Not to argue, ngeso, but there is a bit more than house music and a universal point of view discussed on the DHP. My original issue with this thread was that we are all operating on tainted propaganda masquerading as news and information. Judgements in either direction are, in this climate of misinformation, folly. This is my opinion.

To express one's opinion from an American POV is, to some "househeads" tantamount to agreeing with the actions of the current administration. People love to generalize - no matter which side of the ocean you live.

It isn't the right to the opinion that earns my distaste. Just the generalization and misinformation.</font>[/QUOTE]seen.

[mhd]

Originally posted by Dr. Freud:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by mhd:
so to be an effective torturer, you would have to study and emulate the soviets and the nazis...now that's patriotic

What does patriotism have to do with torture?</font>[/QUOTE]good question, what does sarcasm have to do with political commentary? according to some of the patriots on this page patriotism and torture go hand in hand

[Querck]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
JUSTICE is simply the act of putting things in their proper place.

WOW, I have read many philosophers' views about justice, in fact, read an entire book on it by John Rawls, thought about it myself for years, and now, thanks to the DHP, I know what justice is!!!

Of course, I am only kidding. Trying to create a universal definition of justice is like trying to proclaim one dj as the greatest dj of all time.

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by dannyboy:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
JUSTICE is simply the act of putting things in their proper place.

WOW, I have read many philosophers' views about justice, in fact, read an entire book on it by John Rawls, thought about it myself for years, and now, thanks to the DHP, I know what justice is!!!

Of course, I am only kidding. Trying to create a universal definition of justice is like trying to proclaim one dj as the greatest dj of all time.</font>[/QUOTE]Ah - five pages of pseudo-philosophy and you choose to pick apart the minutae of mine.

I'm always game for a good debate.

[ March 04, 2003, 08:33 PM: Message edited by: Bold Soul ]