Songs recorded on just Cassette tapes

[Chicago Skyway Music]

I was just reading some where that Derrick May recorded "Nude Photo" on just a regular casstte tape. I also saw that Orbital recorded "Chimes" the same way. They even said "You see, you really don't need all this fancy technology to record your stuff" or something along those lines.

So, I ask, why should anyone buy all this fancy equipment to record any of their songs if these artist just used a cassette tape?

Sean Hernandez

[Guillaume]

I think at the time it was more the ideas or the originality of the productions rather than the quality of the recording that mattered...

If the idea is good and the music sounds good, it doesn't really matter, does it?

You can have all the fancy equipment you want and still make shit music, no???

G*

[Chicago Skyway Music]

Originally posted by Guillaume:
I think at the time it was more the ideas or the originality of the productions rather than the quality of the recording that mattered...

If the idea is good and the music sounds good, it doesn't really matter, does it?

You can have all the fancy equipment you want and still make shit music, no???

G*

Agreed. Crap is a crap no matter what gear you have. I just wonder if there are any producers that work like this still. Where they don't use any of the fancy compressers and mastering stuff.

I know that I'm still trying to learn as much as possible about sound to make my tracks sound as good as they can but I still record my stuff and I don't use any of the fancy stuff. Of couse, I don't record anything on to cassette. Instead, I just record it directly into my CPU and burn it.

Another person whom I read about that also did this was Larry Heard. He said he recorded stuff all in the same track and some of the stuff only exhists as a one track reel and cassette.

Sean Hernandez

[Free Russell]

Simplicity is often better, and can sound just as good or better. I've heard how good something simple can sound.

Simple house music in general was a reaction against over-production.

[chet]

Larry Heard was at the Redbull Music Academy. He talked there about his productions like 'can you feel' and how he created them. You'll find the videos at
56k:
http://www.redbullmusicacademy.com/i...&medialink=500
http://www.redbullmusicacademy.com/i...&medialink=502

DSL:
http://www.redbullmusicacademy.com/i...&medialink=501
http://www.redbullmusicacademy.com/i...&medialink=503

[Chicago Skyway Music]

Originally posted by Free Russell:
Simplicity is often better, and can sound just as good or better. I've heard how good something simple can sound.

Simple house music in general was a reaction against over-production.

This is also another reason why I bring this up. I do feel alot of stuff in House music is "over produced". What happened to a drummachine a dope beat, a minimal synth line and a vocal or vocal sample?


Edit: Don't get me wrong, I do love a lot of the stuff that's out (read: MAW, Blaze stuff.) but it's just not my style of production and I do prefer a lot of the older stuff to the newer stuff. Maybe it's just a Chicago thing but whenever i play older stuff people really respond to it.

Sean Hernandez

[ February 06, 2006, 10:21 AM: Message edited by: Sean Hernandez ]

[Craig Patane]

Originally posted by Sean Hernandez:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Free Russell:
Simplicity is often better, and can sound just as good or better. I've heard how good something simple can sound.

Simple house music in general was a reaction against over-production.

This is also another reason why I bring this up. I do feel alot of stuff in House music is "over produced". What happened to a drummachine a dope beat, a minimal synth line and a vocal or vocal sample?


Edit: Don't get me wrong, I do love a lot of the stuff that's out (read: MAW, Blaze stuff.) but it's just not my style of production and I do prefer a lot of the older stuff to the newer stuff. Maybe it's just a Chicago thing but whenever i play older stuff people really respond to it.

Sean Hernandez [/QUOTE]Sean, I totally agree with you, but we are in a constatntly evolving profession and you need to keep up with what is hot...but without selling out. (Good Music comes from the soul and if you aren't feeling what your making..it just isn't worth doing it. I would love to see more chicago/nyc minimalist house tracks coming out, but I just don't see it happening.

THERE IS HOPE...goto beatport.com and checkout Julian Jabre -Swimming Places on defected...Hot, old skool style house.

I think in the next few years we might see a renassance of quality deeper house tracks. It's happening already with the likes of Miguel Migs/ Jay J/ Sandy Rivera etc.....and US here!

When it comes to playing the classics...the reason why you get such a great response is b/c when someone hears atrack they haven't heard in ages...all of theese oldfactory senses start flooding their minds of how great it was when that song first came out!

[ February 06, 2006, 02:14 PM: Message edited by: Craig Patane ]

[dcook]

Originally posted by Sean Hernandez:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Free Russell:
Simplicity is often better, and can sound just as good or better. I've heard how good something simple can sound.

Simple house music in general was a reaction against over-production.

This is also another reason why I bring this up. I do feel alot of stuff in House music is "over produced". What happened to a drummachine a dope beat, a minimal synth line and a vocal or vocal sample?


Edit: Don't get me wrong, I do love a lot of the stuff that's out (read: MAW, Blaze stuff.) but it's just not my style of production and I do prefer a lot of the older stuff to the newer stuff. Maybe it's just a Chicago thing but whenever i play older stuff people really respond to it.

Sean Hernandez [/QUOTE]we need to do like Kerri Said........


LET'S GET BACK TO THE RAW......!

[Chicago Skyway Music]

Originally posted by dcook:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sean Hernandez:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Free Russell:
Simplicity is often better, and can sound just as good or better. I've heard how good something simple can sound.

Simple house music in general was a reaction against over-production.

This is also another reason why I bring this up. I do feel alot of stuff in House music is "over produced". What happened to a drummachine a dope beat, a minimal synth line and a vocal or vocal sample?


Edit: Don't get me wrong, I do love a lot of the stuff that's out (read: MAW, Blaze stuff.) but it's just not my style of production and I do prefer a lot of the older stuff to the newer stuff. Maybe it's just a Chicago thing but whenever i play older stuff people really respond to it.

Sean Hernandez [/QUOTE]we need to do like Kerri Said........


LET'S GET BACK TO THE RAW......! [/QUOTE]Haven't heard that but I like it! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Seriously though, even in Chicago the place where the raw sound is from, I have not seen any releases get the recognition that they deserve. To tell you the truth, I think that a lot of this "raw house" gets misclassifed as techno and people don't buy it or maybe people here in the states are not interested.

Sean Hernandez

[wiz247]

Originally posted by Sean Hernandez:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dcook:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sean Hernandez:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Free Russell:
Simplicity is often better, and can sound just as good or better. I've heard how good something simple can sound.

Simple house music in general was a reaction against over-production.

This is also another reason why I bring this up. I do feel alot of stuff in House music is "over produced". What happened to a drummachine a dope beat, a minimal synth line and a vocal or vocal sample?


Edit: Don't get me wrong, I do love a lot of the stuff that's out (read: MAW, Blaze stuff.) but it's just not my style of production and I do prefer a lot of the older stuff to the newer stuff. Maybe it's just a Chicago thing but whenever i play older stuff people really respond to it.

Sean Hernandez [/QUOTE]we need to do like Kerri Said........


LET'S GET BACK TO THE RAW......! [/QUOTE]Haven't heard that but I like it! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Seriously though, even in Chicago the place where the raw sound is from, I have not seen any releases get the recognition that they deserve. To tell you the truth, I think that a lot of this "raw house" gets misclassifed as techno and people don't buy it or maybe people here in the states are not interested.

Sean Hernandez [/QUOTE]-------------------------------------------------
Sean Hernandez: To tell you the truth, I think that a lot of this "raw house" gets misclassifed as techno
------------------------------------------------
I agree with this statement 100%...
All this shit started happening when house started to get subdivided to soulful house, deephouse, hard house, technohouse and all that fcuking house...
House imo is anything from Joey Beltram, Kerri to Morillo, USA (Chi, Detroit, NYC, Baltimore)to Europe etc...it's all under the umbrella of House...
Btw Nice tracks [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

[Free Russell]

even in Chicago the place where the raw sound is from

Trust me, NYC had that raw sound DOWN back in the day, well before Chicago. Many believe Chicago bit that sound. Fact: THE dopest early rap, hip-hop & club all eminated from NYC and had that rawness. Same for electro, the precursor for north american techno.

That's an aside. Common denominator with all those forms is that the early, rawest productions were best. By that I mean programming good sounds, which is the most important thing. With good sounds, little in the way of extra production's needed or was heard on classic cuts back in the day.

All this shit started happening when house started to get subdivided to soulful house, deephouse, hard house, technohouse and all that fcuking house...

Basically every trend in music eventually runs it's course and loses some of the magic, after which variations start to appear. After NY reached it's peak and was on it's way down just before and around the time of the closure of the Garage, the chicago "house" variation of same helped rekindle the original energy. They did it by returning to the same kind of basic sparse productions. The current subdivision of house into various genres is typical of the splintering that happens within a mature art form as it mutates in efforts to retain it's original edge.

As long as a few contemporary sounds are used in the production, especially the beats, an overall sparse production will ALWAYS work, if the track's GOOD.

I think in the next few years we might see a renassance of quality deeper house tracks.

Pick any year and there'll always be room for that approach, if it's good. Punch-Up, various Arnold Jarvis tracks and Bar a Rhythm are proof of quality deep house trax: absolutely nothing fancy or elaborate about the productions.

More elaborate production is more useful in film scoring or high-end corporate CD mastering. House doesn't really need this for the desired raw effect.

[ February 06, 2006, 11:08 PM: Message edited by: Free Russell ]

[pipecock]

Originally posted by Sean Hernandez:
I just wonder if there are any producers that work like this still. Where they don't use any of the fancy compressers and mastering stuff.

i dont have any releases or anything (hopefully that'll change soon!) but i always mixdown straight to cassette tape, 2 track home stereo business. i sequence with an mpc60, i use CV synths, 80s drum machines, and i never record any modulations on my synths into midi, theyre all done live by hand while i do my live mixdown where i use some sequencing and lots of mutes and channel fader riding to make a track. im looking to maintain that energy that the old stuff that was made that was has that newer more refined stuff just doesnt have.....

[pipecock]

Originally posted by Sean Hernandez:
To tell you the truth, I think that a lot of this "raw house" gets misclassifed as techno

i agree, vehemently. i call house records house music that many others call techno. but i just dont see it that way. and im a techno fan! i can just tell the difference......

[pipecock]

Originally posted by Free Russell:
Trust me, NYC had that raw sound DOWN back in the day, well before Chicago. Many believe Chicago bit that sound. Fact: THE dopest early rap, hip-hop & club all eminated from NYC and had that rawness. Same for electro, the precursor for north american techno.

are you on the crack? certainly NYC had some raw house music and freestyle music back in the day, but it was still far far more polished and refined than chicago's house music. my guess is because the NYC cats all had all the big disco studio people and disco production experience, people like boyd jarvis and timmy regisford and shep pettibone and the like. heads in chicago were making the trax in their bedrooms. its just not the same kinda thing!

[Free Russell]

Pass the pipe, you're already flying. What's interesting to me is that you'd rather resort to guesses & toss insults than absorb insights you have no idea about. So much for open-mindedness, huh? [img]graemlins/rofl.gif[/img]

NYC & Philly produced at all levels, from raw productions to studio music. If you understood the recording process you'd recognize the most of the better-known NY records that formed the basis for house music were simple productions using very little studio processing. Just musicians and a few good instruments that were used well-their expertise fooled you in your assumptions concerning elaborate studio work.

The main difference with Chicago when it expanded on the same idea, was that the general level of musicianship was appreciably lower-sequencers were essential in Chicago house, since most couldn't play. Also, the instruments were low-cost, less good sounding Japanese synths & drum machines for the most part, a key ingredient of which was that they already had midi, huge since most couldn't play and had to sequence. 99% of all house music from day one was/is sequencer driven and low sound quality, which is only one definition of raw; some would call them cheezy facsimilies of raw. The Garage often played great unreleased raw tracks-were you there to hear them? Those Japanese Roland drum machines became popular were used because they were less desirable and thus cost almost nothing, not because they sounded good.

This fallacy about Chicago is exactly why house was able to ca$h in, while NY music always stayed underground. Chicago quickly went international because the masses, just like this guy, were never exposed to anything else, and found this to be something new & deep. Perception's key.

Anyone actually in NYC back in the day early 80s can tell you the same things that you obviously don't know. I bought the records when they came out, still have them along with unreleased tapes. Music is the Key, DJ International's first record, was an obvious copy of raw, low-cost NY productions that were already in Chicago stores. Those records filled a lot of shelf space at Chicago dance stores like Imports Etc. back in the early-mid 80s, provided crucial influence. Copying the NY sound basically guaranteed them sales & airplay in NYC.

Apparently you don't know this. Do the research, then admit you've learned something, instead of pointing fingers.

[ February 09, 2006, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: Free Russell ]

[pipecock]

Originally posted by Free Russell:
Music is the Key, DJ International's first record, was an obvious copy of raw, low-cost NY productions that had already come out in preceeding years. Those records filled a lot of shelf space at Chicago dance stores like Imports Etc. back in the early-mid 80s, provided crucial influence. Copying the NY sound basically guaranteed them sales & airplay in NYC.

Apparently you don't know this. Do the research, then admit you've learned something, instead of pointing fingers.

look ace, i might not be 45 years old and have been around since day 1, but i do have a collection of music from detroit, chicago, and detroit spanning from now to the 70's. i have disco, proto-house, electro boogie, italo, whatever precursors to house music you want to name, ive got bunches of the records. and ive heard many many more than i even own. name these records that "music is the key" was a rip off of.

and anyway, the dj international sound was most definitely the more NYC and philly disco influenced label, check the names on there: loleatta holloway even had a release. the trax and related camp's stuff was far different in sound, much more definitively chicago. things like acid tracks, etc. owes absolutely no debt to anything done in NYC.

[Chicago Skyway Music]

Gentlemen, Thanks for sharing the knowledge and some of the background to this music we love. Of course, whenever it comes to what city did what for the house scene everyone always says that their city was the one to do it first. Next thing we'll have the European cats coming in here saying that if it wasn't for their Italo and Electronic music there wouldn't be any House music period. And then this discussion will become a whole my-city-is-the-best fight.

When I brought this subject up my point of reference was the house I grew up listening to here in Chicago. I will not claim that I know it all. At the same time, I am not ignorant to the history. I have educated myself as well as experienced some of what has happend here in Chicago (I'm really not that young).

I brought up this subject mainly because I was wondering why a producer should even bother buying all these fancy plug-ins/gear to remaster thier music if the cats from the early days (my reference: Chicago) did some of the now "Classic" songs on tape?

Let's continue the discussion without getting to into the reginal aspects of House.

[img]graemlins/beerchug.gif[/img]

Sean Hernandez

[pipecock]

Originally posted by Sean Hernandez:
then this discussion will become a whole my-city-is-the-best fight.

im actually from pittsburgh, about as mid-way between chicago and detroit as you can get. and we have a severely limited house music output, so i dont think youll be hearing me argue for pgh being the best in that reguard anytime soon...

;)

I brought up this subject mainly because I was wondering why a producer should even bother buying all these fancy plug-ins/gear to remaster thier music if the cats from the early days (my reference: Chicago) did some of the now "Classic" songs on tape?

in my opinion they shouldnt bother. i will say that purposely using lots of lo-fi old stuff can be trying in many ways. its very inconvenient in its lack of portability, its pretty expensive even for cheap stuff, and it breaks often and needs expensive repairs. for me though, its a small price to pay for not having to sit in front of a computer. i did music like that for a while, i just couldnt be inspired by it. i still for the most part don't like the sound of most strictly computer produced music. i like flaws in the sound. im sure youre familiar with people like theo parrish and omar-s. i cant be sure, but id guess that most of their stuff is produced in a pretty lo-fi old school kinda manner. and it works better on the dancefloor than almost any other modern house music.

[Free Russell]

Actually, info & history that creates wider perspectives beyond the usual regionalism should be welcomed. The point of forums is to share info, and not necessarily within only the limited purviews of the immediate question at hand. Lazily dismissing everything as opinion is a nice way of learning nothing. Mentioning Chicago as the home of "raw" is patently incorrect.

Better to try to discriminate between opinion and fact. Some are hard facts-events, music and trends that actually existed at very specific times and places, that can be substantiated. The latter has nothing to do with opinion.

From many of the comments here, I suspect that there's precious little effort to widen perspectives, to learn. Probably none of the books listed under the reading section have been absorbed. "Last Night a DJ Saved my Life", Mel Cheren's book, and that by Haden-Guest re: "The Last Party" for example. These books solidify events that are otherwise readily dismissed as opinion. Your lack of curiosity is striking guys. With more info, those so willing to dismiss foreign ideas might think twice.

Once you appreciate wider perspectives, you start to see the same trends repeat, ones that can apply in future. It only takes an open-mind to first absorb all available info before rendering informed opinion.

Just reinforces the answer to the original question. Lo-fi is timeless, always works if there's something special somewhere in the creative process. Doesn't require a lot of expense. Just use solid, affordable new or used equipment that sounds good, and get the most out of it. Precisely why some prefer hardware and simplicity over computers.

[ February 09, 2006, 03:09 PM: Message edited by: Free Russell ]

[O'love]

i like my music raw and rough...it's just so much more emotion it seems, especially over a big soundsystem the rough and raw stuff works much better than the overproduced stuff...

i purchased a nakamichi cassette-deck some months ago just for the purpose of roughening up tracks, individual sounds and recording mixes to. I feel that recording to tape makes the mixes "gell" better or something..they don't sound as fatiqueing any more when played at loud volumes..

it's funny, in the Sound on Sound there is a test of a Sumo summing box. Summing boxes are the latest craze for people that tend to mix digital, but feel their mixes lack that certain sound of analogue mixes, so they use a summing box to send out their digital multitracks and mix them in the analogue domain. The guy that tested the Sumo box found that indeed the mix summed in the sumo-box did sound better than the one mixed in the digital domain. Then he tested something else: he send out the stereo digital mix into the Sumo box, and recorded that, so no analogue mixing, only using the circuits of the Sumo box, and the sound that came out was indisguiseable from the analogue summed mix, and thus also better sounding than the 100% digital mix. His conclusions where that it's not so much the analogue summing that creates that certain sound, but the fact that a mix goed through some high quality analogue circuitry that removes the "edges" and "gells" the sound somewhat to make it sound nicer (more euphoric).

Olaf

[Chicago Skyway Music]

Originally posted by O'love:
i like my music raw and rough...it's just so much more emotion it seems, especially over a big soundsystem the rough and raw stuff works much better than the overproduced stuff...

i purchased a nakamichi cassette-deck some months ago just for the purpose of roughening up tracks, individual sounds and recording mixes to. I feel that recording to tape makes the mixes "gell" better or something..they don't sound as fatiqueing any more when played at loud volumes..

it's funny, in the Sound on Sound there is a test of a Sumo summing box. Summing boxes are the latest craze for people that tend to mix digital, but feel their mixes lack that certain sound of analogue mixes, so they use a summing box to send out their digital multitracks and mix them in the analogue domain. The guy that tested the Sumo box found that indeed the mix summed in the sumo-box did sound better than the one mixed in the digital domain. Then he tested something else: he send out the stereo digital mix into the Sumo box, and recorded that, so no analogue mixing, only using the circuits of the Sumo box, and the sound that came out was indisguiseable from the analogue summed mix, and thus also better sounding than the 100% digital mix. His conclusions where that it's not so much the analogue summing that creates that certain sound, but the fact that a mix goed through some high quality analogue circuitry that removes the "edges" and "gells" the sound somewhat to make it sound nicer (more euphoric).

Olaf

What kind of nakamichi cassette-deck did you buy?

Sean Hernandez

[O'love]

Originally posted by Sean Hernandez:

quote:

---

Originally posted by O'love:
i like my music raw and rough...it's just so much more emotion it seems, especially over a big soundsystem the rough and raw stuff works much better than the overproduced stuff...

i purchased a nakamichi cassette-deck some months ago just for the purpose of roughening up tracks, individual sounds and recording mixes to. I feel that recording to tape makes the mixes "gell" better or something..they don't sound as fatiqueing any more when played at loud volumes..

it's funny, in the Sound on Sound there is a test of a Sumo summing box. Summing boxes are the latest craze for people that tend to mix digital, but feel their mixes lack that certain sound of analogue mixes, so they use a summing box to send out their digital multitracks and mix them in the analogue domain. The guy that tested the Sumo box found that indeed the mix summed in the sumo-box did sound better than the one mixed in the digital domain. Then he tested something else: he send out the stereo digital mix into the Sumo box, and recorded that, so no analogue mixing, only using the circuits of the Sumo box, and the sound that came out was indisguiseable from the analogue summed mix, and thus also better sounding than the 100% digital mix. His conclusions where that it's not so much the analogue summing that creates that certain sound, but the fact that a mix goed through some high quality analogue circuitry that removes the "edges" and "gells" the sound somewhat to make it sound nicer (more euphoric).

Olaf

What kind of nakamichi cassette-deck did you buy?

Sean Hernandez [/QUOTE]a spanking new nakamichi dr-2 for 125 euros from the first owner, a guy who used it to make compilation albums for a philips recordlabel ;)

Olaf

[Chicago Skyway Music]

Do you use regular cassettes or metal?

Sean Hernandez

[Free Russell]

I use metal, on tapes beginning around 1981.

The best combo is a superior deck, metal tape that is no longer than 90 minutes and no dolby or other coding.

Nakamichi & Tascam are the best. I prefer Tascam only because they're more durable and are easily fixed.

[ February 10, 2006, 12:29 PM: Message edited by: Free Russell ]

[Free Russell]

the dj international sound was most definitely the more NYC and philly disco influenced label, check the names on there: loleatta holloway even had a release. the trax and related camp's stuff was far different in sound, much more definitively chicago. things like acid tracks, etc. owes absolutely no debt to anything done in NYC.

What you're again missing, because your awareness is limited, is that DJ international was the original house label, not Traxx. What the original house label did was copy the NY sound, period. You seem to want to resist connecting the obvious dots.

As far as records you have from Detroit and Chicago from the 70s, what does that mean? Those cities weren't part of larger musical movements, but put out a few records. Detroit was still hung-over from Motown, and Chicago had nothing identifiable as it's own. If it did, you've done a poor job telling us what it was.

As far as the Traxx stuff, ya it was more original, and mostly crap to those who love soulful music. That stuff was soooo good that it's barely made any more! House that has lasted, that is made now is largely in the NY/Philly vein, if you haven't noticed.

[ February 10, 2006, 12:41 PM: Message edited by: Free Russell ]