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Author
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Topic: POLL: Who's responsible for the Chicago nightclub stampede?
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david mancuso
unregistered
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posted
Dear Folks....not sure how to set this up properly, so if you want to participate in this poll purrrrhaps you could write which answer you choose and just hit the post reply button. Sorry 4 any inconvenience
d
Ps.
Note: From time to time, my posts may contain misspellings, grammatical errors, disorganized sentence structure, or may entirely lack a coherent theme. These elements come naturally to me and will only add to the overall beauty of the post. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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QUESTION:
WHO'S RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CHICAGO NIGHTCLUB STAMPEDE?
Club management
Security guards
Patrons who were fighting
Patrons who panicked
All of the above
None of the above
[ February 18, 2003, 12:10 AM: Message edited by: david mancuso ]
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david mancuso
unregistered
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posted
test
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f0reverneverm0re
unregistered
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posted
None of the above
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djmarbll
Diamond Member
Member # 972
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posted
I think the owners of the club are directly responsible because they were operating illegally anyway. They were on the verge of losing their liquor license because of complaints from nearby businesses and the owners were given a city order not to even open the second floor, which means that not only will criminal charges be filed, but tax evasion charges might be filed also.
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It's difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on him not understanding it -- Upton Sinclair
http://www.myspace.com/djmarbll
http://www.zshare.net/audio/185004588c9e04/
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david mancuso
unregistered
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by djmarbll:
I think the owners of the club are directly responsible because they were operating illegally anyway. They were on the verge of losing their liquor license because of complaints from nearby businesses and the owners were given a city order not to even open the second floor, which means that not only will criminal charges be filed, but tax evasion charges might be filed also.
re: Some of the exits were manually locked
Rule # 1
Safety First!
This is why some of these people should not be in this business. What if they were on a boat? Certainly there would be a Captain and Crew that would be qualified and could trusted that it would be a safe trip.
At the same time these people could go "out there" today and open a new place and their previous crimes would not stick to them. For ex. a bad lawyer can lose their license in one state but practice in another.
These people should be never allowed to be in this kind business ever again!
d
[ February 18, 2003, 03:41 AM: Message edited by: david mancuso ]
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blackwax
Diamond Member
Member # 3006
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posted
its definateley the club owners st fault it is there responsibility to have proper safety systems in place. As for having exits locked thats just insanity!!!
These people should be locked away for a very long time
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www.faizemusic.com
blackwax myspace
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AD
Diamond Member
Member # 399
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posted
This is a tough question. My vote is tied for both, "all of the above" and "none of the above." Personally, I think that things happen for a reason, and everyone included played a part in that reason. Who exactly is at fault is something impossible for me to determine. I always say, "God does things for a reason."
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There's no place like 127.0.0.1
http://myspace.com/choicemusic
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nev m
Star Member
Member # 2697
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by djmarbll:
I think the owners of the club are directly responsible because they were operating illegally anyway. They were on the verge of losing their liquor license because of complaints from nearby businesses and the owners were given a city order not to even open the second floor, which means that not only will criminal charges be filed, but tax evasion charges might be filed also.
When you think for the large part this whole scene was founded on illegal parties or gatherings of some sort,I think that although perhaps they are legally responsible, you have to look at the whole picture, and say this tragic event could have happend just as easily in a legally operating club. In this case I doubt whether the operatives would have been considered as iresponsible.
My feelings are whether the club was illegal, or not if certain health, and safety implementations were not in place then someone should be liable.
Lets not forget this terrible accident could really have happend anywhere, and when one person panics it causes a natural chain reaction, and a stampede often occurs.
May all their souls rest in peace.
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"The end of the Earth is upon us pretty soon it will all turn to dust. So get up! Forget the past, go outside, and have a blast."
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Wild i
Platinum Member
Member # 98
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posted
Just remember, there's a difference between illegal and irresponsible. There may be any number of political reasons why something is illegal. If one determines to proceed anyway, that doesn't be they abrogate responsibility. If anything, they should put even more effort into making sure all their other ducks are in a row.
Management is ultimately responsible for whatever happens in a club. That's why they get the biggest share of the take, because they (theoretically) shoulder the most responsibility.
Beyond that, Security was clearly inadequate. Why would anyone put down a fight between 2 people by macing 1500? I just heard that the other doors were not locked, but neither were they illuminated and no one was being directed to them. A patron interviewed said all the lights had been turned off which, of course, increased the panic.
I know a lot of party givers don't spend the money on professional security. Instead they get a couple of their beefy friends to man the door. This is a huge mistake. Even when we had the kiddie club in Harlem (16-24 year olds), we had 10 peers working the floor and three on the door, plus the women of PVI worked security as did two of my brothers. Fights were put down quickly and the offending parties hustled out.
Back to management, the place was overcrowded. People see $$$ and fail to do the right thing, such as practice crowd control.
On the other hand, I've learned to stay away from venues that get so crowded and I've learned to check for exits when I enter a club. Not to blame the victims, but you really can't count on others to protect your safety. You really do have to look out for yourself.
Sorry to ramble.
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http://abmelanomia.tripod.com
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lyot
Gold Member +
Member # 120
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posted
no disrespect whatsoever, but i don't think we have enough information to really determine who was responsible..You can't trust the media on this, i'd say..
peace
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peace
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david mancuso
unregistered
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by lyot:
no disrespect whatsoever, but i don't think we have enough information to really determine who was responsible..You can't trust the media on this, i'd say..
peace
Lyot:
True. Also, as Albert D mentioned there is a reason for everything. Perhaps indirectly this will have prevented a greater tragedy. Speaking of tragedy, perhaps a "national day of mourning" should be set aside. They did it for 7 astronauts, why not this.
As Wild one says, "On the other hand, I've learned to stay away from venues that get so crowded and I've learned to check for exits when I enter a club" are words of wisdom.
May these 21 souls rest in peace. Our condolences to their loved ones....
d
[ February 18, 2003, 07:09 AM: Message edited by: david mancuso ]
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lyot
Gold Member +
Member # 120
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posted
yes, it would be nice to see a national day of mourning for that...but i suppose it's not something the governemnt would think of..
I know for sure that the next time i'm gonna be on a crowded party, i'm gonna think of it..
To be honest, i've organised a lot of parties before where there was only one entrance..(a small one)..The place could only hold 150 people, and it was completely in concrete (no fire risk) but still...I sometimes still have nightmares about what could have gone wrong there..But when you're young, you don't think that much about the risks, or you're willing to take them..not any more, that's for sure..
peace
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peace
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MC
Platinum Member
Member # 2665
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posted
I would have to say that the club management is to blame. They could have held a meeting to go over "what if" scenerios. They could have also hired more guards to protect the chained doors to prevent patrons from entering who didn't pay. To see the people piled up at the exit door was very heart breaking. The look of their faces, I could only image the people who were at the bottom of the pile.
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manfred
Member
Member # 1379
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posted
club management
they invited these patrons to the club and their actions killed them.
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gotta keep keep on pushin on
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Palatine William Wilson
Diamond Member
Member # 764
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posted
Club Management first and foremost
Like Dave said rule #1 is safety first. Those fire exits shouuld NOT have been locked - end of argument.
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"You have conquered, and I yield. Yet, henceforward art thou also dead � dead to the World, to Heaven and to Hope! In me didst thou exist � and, in my death, see by this image, which is thine own, how utterly thou hast murdered thyself."
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Raven Fox
Gold Member
Member # 2488
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posted
This comes to mind:
Sometimes things like THIS happen to ensure that they NEVER happen again.
ONE EXIT with a hyped up huge crowd is a recipe for disaster.
I know this must be a huge wake up call for club owners ALL OVER THE WORLD to make sure they have their acts together. Please heed this warning.
TRAGIC but hopefully a LESSON LEARNED.
Respect to the lost souls in Chicago.
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mixing ART, MUSIC & TECHNOLOGY
((( peace + love + unity + respect )))
http://myspace.com/djravenfox
http://www.ravenfox.net
http://www.soulfulhousemusic.com
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AD
Diamond Member
Member # 399
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by david mancuso:
perhaps a "national day of mourning" should be set aside. They did it for 7 astronauts, why not this.
True. A life is a life, no matter what.
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There's no place like 127.0.0.1
http://myspace.com/choicemusic
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Dj Pat
Platinum Member +
Member # 3129
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posted
Hmm...
First and foremost i would like to send my deepest regret to what happend to the people who lost there lives that night.
I think all of the above.
A lot of you know who i am...ive been doing night club security in the city of chicago for over 10 years and i have never seen anything like this!
Security should never-ever break up a fight using peper spray! For one it circulate in the air and everyone gets a whiff of it.
I hate to say this, but the truth of the matter about club security is that some of them have never had any type of crowd security training what so ever.
There not bonded nor insured with the state,and allmost for sure there underpaid.
They have no type of o.s.h.a training and cant perform cpr.
Its one thing to be big, but its another thing to be big and stupid!
And that was just plain dumb what they have done!
Its 2 sides to the story about the club should have never been open...the lawyer for the club owners was on tv saying that the judge order was for only the up-stairs balcony was to be close to the public, and i beleive that.
Think about this...knowing how this city works if the police knew that there was an ilegal function down the street from there station it would have been shut down 1hour after it had open!
I fault the promoters for over exceeding the capacity of the club.
If upstairs can only hold only 500 people then why did they continue to collect monyes from the patrons?
Why was there under age teens there?
Why was the men that was in the club try to be men to save the lives of the woman that was stomp to death?
Why didnt the promoters shut the doors after a certain compacity?
Its more than plenty of blame to be spread around!
We just have to make sure that this never happens again!
Blue.
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Dj Hugo H.
Dj Pat
Physical Heat Music
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AD
Diamond Member
Member # 399
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by manfred:
club management
they invited these patrons to the club and their actions killed them.
That can be debated.
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There's no place like 127.0.0.1
http://myspace.com/choicemusic
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fred da warrior
Diamond Member
Member # 367
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Blue:
Hmm...
First and foremost i would like to send my deepest regret to what happend to the people who lost there lives that night.
I think all of the above.
A lot of you know who i am...ive been doing night club security in the city of chicago for over 10 years and i have never seen anything like this!
Security should never-ever break up a fight using peper spray! For one it circulate in the air and everyone gets a whiff of it.
I hate to say this, but the truth of the matter about club security is that some of them have never had any type of crowd security training what so ever.
There not bonded nor insured with the state,and allmost for sure there underpaid.
They have no type of o.s.h.a training and cant perform cpr.
Its one thing to be big, but its another thing to be big and stupid!
And that was just plain dumb what they have done!
Its 2 sides to the story about the club should have never been open...the lawyer for the club owners was on tv saying that the judge order was for only the up-stairs balcony was to be close to the public, and i beleive that.
Think about this...knowing how this city works if the police knew that there was an ilegal function down the street from there station it would have been shut down 1hour after it had open!
I fault the promoters for over exceeding the capacity of the club.
If upstairs can only hold only 500 people then why did they continue to collect monyes from the patrons?
Why was there under age teens there?
Why was the men that was in the club try to be men to save the lives of the woman that was stomp to death?
Why didnt the promoters shut the doors after a certain compacity?
Its more than plenty of blame to be spread around!
We just have to make sure that this never happens again!
Blue.
These are good questions blue, but I wish Cliff Kelley had asked Andre Grant some TOUGH questions, but the interview they had seem to go the way of, "well if this had been the house of blues or if this was a white club". I don't know but it seems to me if Mayor Daley REALLY wanted the club shut down, it would't be there any more. That place has been there since 1986 with probably the same violation codes, because I don't think the asthestics (sp) of the place has changed that much over the years. When the smoke clears, this will probably rest with the alderman of that area and the watch commander of the police department, because they had to have known that the place was in violation and allowed parties of that same capacity to go on damn near EVERY WEEK.
[ February 18, 2003, 09:54 AM: Message edited by: fred ]
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www.nubangclan.com
www.myspace.com/warriornbc
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Dj Pat
Platinum Member +
Member # 3129
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posted
Yeah they knew!
The city knew that the club was open and so did the off duty sheriff and police that work there!
Ive work at H.O.B allso and the real reason why that club is still open is for the simple fact that its known as an chicago trademark to tourist!
Marina towers still trying to close the club down, but it brings in so much revenue to the city tourist borard and on top of that the city is at odds with with jam promotions and ticket master.
Its a shame, bottom line!
Blue.
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Dj Hugo H.
Dj Pat
Physical Heat Music
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Dj Pat
Platinum Member +
Member # 3129
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posted
Hell, im still wondering..." why didnt the men be men and try to get the woman off the stairs"?
Blue.
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Dj Hugo H.
Dj Pat
Physical Heat Music
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cduke
Member
Member # 935
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posted
club owner should not be made a scapegoat and the city shares some blame for not enforcing codes, adding, "It is the job of inspectors and officials to do just that."
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liL Ray
Diamond Member
Member # 163
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Blue:
Hell, im still wondering..." why didnt the men be men and try to get the woman off the stairs"?
Blue.
This question may go to the heart of what our society is changing into....if all these videos flash that women are just pieces of meat and bitches(what's that new video now..'I don't love her'), then what can we expect?
These times they are changing....
[ February 18, 2003, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: liL Ray ]
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YOU WISH YOU WERE ME!
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liL Ray
Diamond Member
Member # 163
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by cduke:
club owner should not be made a scapegoat and the city shares some blame for not enforcing codes, adding, "It is the job of inspectors and officials to do just that."
So you won't have any problems when the city start to enforce every "draconian" law on the books....if that happens, there won't be any place to party. That's like having the government running up in your house ever week. If the club owners, promoters and all involve take care of business, there would be no need for "The Man" to come into your business.
I think the promoters and club owners are at fault....security may play some part, but they(promoters/club owners) put them in the line of fire.
....liL Ray
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YOU WISH YOU WERE ME!
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