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Author
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Topic: England ; America ... are we as close as we think?
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Insert pseudonym here
Super Star Member
Member # 1770
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posted
Last night I saw a documentary on the Nottinghill Riots. It was indeed horrific. Very similar to the tensions that were prevalent during the Black Civil Rights era in America.
Then, I was left to ponder about the English society and the implications of not having a true perspective on race relations ---
After I pulled myself away from the "racial overtones" of the documentary. I began to examine general English culture, irregardless of race. Mentally, I tried to summarize the English culture---
One of elitism.
One of insincerity.
One of brutual conquest.
One of denial.
So, I'm asking this audience.
Are we as Americans more "authentic" in our everyday relations than the English? As I start to examine the English culture, I don't find too much difference between the English and Americans --- except for "authenticity" in regards to one's feelings and how they express themselves. Is American culture nothing but a younger hybrid of the classism "facet" of English culture?
By the end of my mental exploration on the subject matter, I had a full frontal lobe overload.
I'm interested to hear a perspective from both sides of the water.
What's your take on British culture?
What's your take on American culture?
...And are we that similar to each other? Or has this whole "allies" masquerade been a farce to cover for the global fiscal implications regarding the Iraqi oil issue?
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Insert pseudonym here
Super Star Member
Member # 1770
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mathius:
I'm lurking with interest on this one ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Great thread BTW ![[thumbsup]](graemlins/thumbsup.gif)
Since I've been here in the UK, a lot of British people have asked me for a true perspective of my time here and asked me analytical questions regarding the difference in cultures. I've tried to answer to the best of my ability; but in all honesty I never truly gave it a deep and cleansing review.
So, now in my spare time as I meet more people, and start to truly settle in to a different culture... there are situations, people and instances that have moved me to start my meticulous examination of the culture that I have infiltrated.
Often times we as Americans are thought to be "numb-skulls" and invaders into cultures that we know nothing about. At least for myself I want to learn more about British culture then make an educated opinion that's faired by facts and experience, not silly stereotypes and hypothesis.
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martin
Star Member
Member # 442
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by NOT YOUR AVG. FAIR WEATHER FRIEND:
Often times we as Americans are thought to be "numb-skulls" and invaders into cultures that we know nothing about. At least for myself I want to learn more about British culture then make an educated opinion that's faired by facts and experience, not silly stereotypes and hypothesis.
This is appreciated. So many times I have had customers say to me (when I worked in a busy tourist/hotel district), "Well it's not like this in the US". To which I would normally point out that they weren't in the US.
quote:
Originally posted by DJ Efabulous:
I tried to summarize the English culture---
One of elitism.
One of insincerity.
One of brutual conquest.
One of denial.
I'd be interested to hear how you reached these conclusions, and expound on these implicit comments.
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ngeso
Platinum Member +
Member # 1522
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by DJ Efabulous:
Mentally, I tried to summarize the English culture---
One of elitism.
One of insincerity.
One of brutual conquest.
One of denial.
[/QB]
not that i'm siding with the 'archenemy' ![[Angel]](biggrinangel.gif) , but what benchmarks are employing to reach this conclusion? this is going to be interesting...
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Potbelly gives good loving.
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ngeso
Platinum Member +
Member # 1522
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posted
you could be right about the denial; the english are squarely in denial of being European ![[noshake]](graemlins/jpshakehead.gif)
[ July 02, 2003, 08:12 AM: Message edited by: ngeso ]
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Potbelly gives good loving.
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Insert pseudonym here
Super Star Member
Member # 1770
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by martin s:
quote:
Originally posted by NOT YOUR AVG. FAIR WEATHER FRIEND:
Often times we as Americans are thought to be "numb-skulls" and invaders into cultures that we know nothing about. At least for myself I want to learn more about British culture then make an educated opinion that's faired by facts and experience, not silly stereotypes and hypothesis.
This is appreciated. So many times I have had customers say to me (when I worked in a busy tourist/hotel district), "Well it's not like this in the US". To which I would normally point out that they weren't in the US.
quote:
Originally posted by DJ Efabulous:
I tried to summarize the English culture---
One of elitism.
One of insincerity.
One of brutual conquest.
One of denial.
I'd be interested to hear how you reached these conclusions, and expound on these implicit comments.
To be honest its rubbish without fact... and that's what I intend to investigate the facts about England and the lack of real diversity that I sense in this country.
Right now, I'm an outsider --- and before I truly look in, I want to be informed about what I'm looking at.
So, pardon my "flip-flop or rather flim-flam"... but the more knowledge I gain about the subject matter indeed, then the more substantive prose I can really contribute to the conversation. That's why I'm looking to gather perspective from others.
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Digiman
Member +
Member # 3109
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by DJ Efabulous:
One of elitism.
One of insincerity.
One of brutual conquest.
One of denial.
A certain section of British society is elitist, I think that is true. Older people especially still seem to think of the UK as a great power. Younger people here have no such illusions
I don't think that Brits are insincere, I'd be interested to hear why you think that. We do have a history of brutal conquest, but then doesn't almost every country?
If Brits are in denial of anything its Europe and the fact that we are no longer the player we once were. We need to "downsize" and stop following the Americans. If nothing else, we can't bloody afford to!
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Real Posting - Fair And Balanced
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martin
Star Member
Member # 442
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by NOT YOUR AVG. FAIR WEATHER FRIEND:
I intend to investigate the facts about England and the lack of real diversity that I sense in this country.
Right now, I'm an outsider
If you think England lacks diversity, and this is not meant to give offense, then are you are definitely an outsider. Stop worrying about looking at the culture and analyzing it, and live it. From my experience that is the only way to truly discover another nation's culture. Through work and play and mixing with our truly diverse poeple you'll get an insight.
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martin
Star Member
Member # 442
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by DJ Efabulous:
One of elitism.
One of insincerity.
One of brutual conquest.
One of denial.
It looks like you're starting with certain assumptions. While we do have a history of brutal conquest, but it is no longer part of our culture.
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Insert pseudonym here
Super Star Member
Member # 1770
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mathius:
I'd be interested in your thoughts on class?
Do you perceive it to be the same in the US?
*lurk rewind*
If only I had a friend that was a sociology major, to help me on this one? ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
In my thoughts (a nice way to say my opinion - lol!) I see the basis and foundation of the class structure of the United States to mirror the British in a large number of aspects. However, because classism originally stemed from the royal hierarchy there are some variations. Needless to say they are both based on fiscal power. I think the United States differs because the educational system is a key to climbing up the class ladder. Whereas, here in Britain it seems to me that regardless of education there are institutional traditions in place to keep one in their original class unless their education growth is directly proportionate to their future/ current fiscal growth.
Being a sharecropper's grand-daughter I can confidently attest to the flexibility that my family has had in regards to class. Our family has move through class level with the aid of education. Education is indeed the key.
I shutter to think what my life would be like if my family was indeed immigrants of Britain, I think a higher education would give me more exposure to opportunities that would help me transcend class but it seems to me in Britain that having the exposure to a good higher educational experience is institutionally restricted for certain cultures/ ethnicities.
Basically, we in America take advantage of the opportunities presented by free education... here in Britain for those who want to excel... some of the opportunities to good education are not given.
Sorry to be so verbose, but the thoughts and examination of the various facets of British life tend to swarm erratically in my brain.
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Digiman
Member +
Member # 3109
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posted
Hey, DJ Efab - just looking at your signature there. Isn't there 12 musical notes? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Real Posting - Fair And Balanced
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Mah'chew
Platinum Member
Member # 1610
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albert Square:
quote:
Originally posted by DJ Efabulous:
One of elitism.
One of insincerity.
One of brutual conquest.
One of denial.
A certain section of British society is elitist, I think that is true. Older people especially still seem to think of the UK as a great power. Younger people here have no such illusions
I don't think that Brits are insincere, I'd be interested to hear why you think that. We do have a history of brutal conquest, but then doesn't almost every country?
If Brits are in denial of anything its Europe and the fact that we are no longer the player we once were. We need to "downsize" and stop following the Americans. If nothing else, we can't bloody afford to!
But linked to class, there's still young people who will view England as superior, the ones that fagged for William at Eton for example.
And there's older people, my parents for example, who see it as a disfunctional mess and tecnically a third-world country...(always citing travelling by train as an example - it's the worst and most unsafe rail system in the world, no question about it..)
[ July 02, 2003, 09:14 AM: Message edited by: Mathius ]
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http://www.funkjunk.notlong.com
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Mah'chew
Platinum Member
Member # 1610
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by martin s:
quote:
Originally posted by NOT YOUR AVG. FAIR WEATHER FRIEND:
I intend to investigate the facts about England and the lack of real diversity that I sense in this country.
Right now, I'm an outsider
If you think England lacks diversity, and this is not meant to give offense, then are you are definitely an outsider. Stop worrying about looking at the culture and analyzing it, and live it. From my experience that is the only way to truly discover another nation's culture. Through work and play and mixing with our truly diverse poeple you'll get an insight.
Maybe, I'm being romantic here, but I think that England is extremely diverse as well, much like anywhere in Europe, we've had centuries of mixing and migration..
Does everyone get on? (that's a whole new kettle of sashimi)
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http://www.funkjunk.notlong.com
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Mah'chew
Platinum Member
Member # 1610
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posted
Make sure Nev and Martin take you to Notting Hill Carnival. It's very much England*London* with it's guard down for a whole weekend. You should see some diversity and unity displayed there...
Are you and the boys not drinking Pimms on the lawn while listening to Wimbledon on the wireless?
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http://www.funkjunk.notlong.com
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martin
Star Member
Member # 442
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by NOT YOUR AVG. FAIR WEATHER FRIEND:
here in Britain it seems to me that regardless of education there are institutional traditions in place to keep one in their original class unless their education growth is directly proportionate to their future/ current fiscal growth.
What do you base this on?
quote:
Originally posted by NOT YOUR AVG. FAIR WEATHER FRIEND:
it seems to me in Britain that having the exposure to a good higher educational experience is institutionally restricted for certain cultures/ ethnicities.
Basically, we in America take advantage of the opportunities presented by free education... here in Britain for those who want to excel... some of the opportunities to good education are not given.
I'm fascinated to find out what you base these ASSUMPTIONS on.
While you're at it maybe you can offer some definitions of the class divisions in this country. I've asked UK DHPers to do this before and none could. (I read a lot of life stories and family histories but nobody, including those who are keen to jump on "the class issue", was able to offer anything close to a definition.) I'm still confused as to what class I am, maybe you can help me out with this.
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martin
Star Member
Member # 442
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mathius:
Maybe, I'm being romantic here, but I think that England is extremely diverse as well, much like anywhere in Europe
I'd say THE most diverse country in Europe - but maybe I'm being romantic.
I love this country, but that said, I'm looking to move away from it.
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Mah'chew
Platinum Member
Member # 1610
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posted
Things I miss about England:
o Radio Four - archaic, informative, shipping forecast.
o English Comedy - unrivaled & without equal (elitist moi?).
o Beer Gardens - boosy sundays, talking crap with mates.
o English Parks - like beer gardens, with tunes and big reefers.
o Blatent Sarcasm - ripping the hell out people.
o Irony - everywhere
o Readers Wives - there so real!
o Chips in Gravy & Curries - ambrosia by another name!
Things I don't miss:
o Trains - shite.
o The streets after the pubs through out - violent.
o Tony Blair - wanker!
o Royal Family - should have gone in the cellar with their Russian cousins!
o Middle class stiffness and mediocrity
o So Solid Crew - wank!
o Zoe Ball - we waved flags the day she moved out of Brixton.
o Jordan - page 3 stunna
o Anything to do with the DHSS.
o Big Brother - double wank!
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http://www.funkjunk.notlong.com
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Mah'chew
Platinum Member
Member # 1610
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by martin s:
quote:
Originally posted by Mathius:
Maybe, I'm being romantic here, but I think that England is extremely diverse as well, much like anywhere in Europe
I'd say THE most diverse country in Europe - but maybe I'm being romantic.
I love this country, but that said, I'm looking to move away from it.
Best thing I did. Although it turns you into a spectator of sorts. However, the upside of it is England is seen as kind of a cool place by people I've met while away, makes you a kind of a funky immigrant - not sure if this is true in Baghdad?
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http://www.funkjunk.notlong.com
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martin
Star Member
Member # 442
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mathius:
quote:
Originally posted by martin s:
quote:
Originally posted by Mathius:
Maybe, I'm being romantic here, but I think that England is extremely diverse as well, much like anywhere in Europe
I'd say THE most diverse country in Europe - but maybe I'm being romantic.
I love this country, but that said, I'm looking to move away from it.
Best thing I did. Although it turns you into a spectator of sorts. However, the upside of it is England is seen as kind of a cool place by people I've met while away, makes you a kind of a funky immigrant - not sure if this is true in Baghdad?
I lived in Spain before, and having just come back from a week there for the first time in a few years, I am now totally convinced that I want to move back. It's not so much that I don't like it here, but that I prefer it there.
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TAC
Diamond Member
Member # 30
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by martin s:
quote:
Originally posted by NOT YOUR AVG. FAIR WEATHER FRIEND:
here in Britain it seems to me that regardless of education there are institutional traditions in place to keep one in their original class unless their education growth is directly proportionate to their future/ current fiscal growth.
What do you base this on?
quote:
Originally posted by NOT YOUR AVG. FAIR WEATHER FRIEND:
it seems to me in Britain that having the exposure to a good higher educational experience is institutionally restricted for certain cultures/ ethnicities.
Basically, we in America take advantage of the opportunities presented by free education... here in Britain for those who want to excel... some of the opportunities to good education are not given.
I'm fascinated to find out what you base these ASSUMPTIONS on.
While you're at it maybe you can offer some definitions of the class divisions in this country. I've asked UK DHPers to do this before and none could. (I read a lot of life stories and family histories but nobody, including those who are keen to jump on "the class issue", was able to offer anything close to a definition.) I'm still confused as to what class I am, maybe you can help me out with this.
She's using empirical data, gathered from here own observations while living there.
The diversity she is talking about is not the diversity of the nation, but rather the diversity of its institutions.
Generally, I'll be staying out of this one. But for the record, I KNOW EXACTLY what she is talking about and where see is coming from with this entire post. Being that some of you English men are in the culture, you may not realize what is going on around you. In such an instance, it takes someone from the outside to open your eyes.
Peace
TAC
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martin
Star Member
Member # 442
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by TAC:
quote:
Originally posted by martin s:
quote:
Originally posted by NOT YOUR AVG. FAIR WEATHER FRIEND:
here in Britain it seems to me that regardless of education there are institutional traditions in place to keep one in their original class unless their education growth is directly proportionate to their future/ current fiscal growth.
What do you base this on?
quote:
Originally posted by NOT YOUR AVG. FAIR WEATHER FRIEND:
it seems to me in Britain that having the exposure to a good higher educational experience is institutionally restricted for certain cultures/ ethnicities.
Basically, we in America take advantage of the opportunities presented by free education... here in Britain for those who want to excel... some of the opportunities to good education are not given.
I'm fascinated to find out what you base these ASSUMPTIONS on.
While you're at it maybe you can offer some definitions of the class divisions in this country. I've asked UK DHPers to do this before and none could. (I read a lot of life stories and family histories but nobody, including those who are keen to jump on "the class issue", was able to offer anything close to a definition.) I'm still confused as to what class I am, maybe you can help me out with this.
She's using empirical data, gathered from here own observations while living there.
The diversity she is talking about is not the diversity of the nation, but rather the diversity of its institutions.
Generally, I'll be staying out of this one. But for the record, I KNOW EXACTLY what she is talking about and where see is coming from with this entire post. Being that some of you English men are in the culture, you may not realize what is going on around you. In such an instance, it takes someone from the outside to open your eyes.
Peace
TAC
Which is what I'm asking for - but nothing yet, and I hope it's going to be more constructive than the ill-informed DHPer that wanted to educate us to the faxt that we're all Asian-haters
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ngeso
Platinum Member +
Member # 1522
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posted
i sensed that this one was going to turn ridiculous. i'm looking forward to that condescension.
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Potbelly gives good loving.
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