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Author
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Topic: In Your Opinion, what are the issues that will affect the future of house music?
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mhd
Diamond Member
Member # 18
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by diaspora:
quote:
Originally posted by mhd:
and to sustain you have to appeal to the lcd, to sustain you have to homogenize, dilute, no thanks
no way you don't have to dilute to sustain...you just need to be smart and have effective partners...
and therein lies the challenge in a world where people chase pennies to get one over on the next guy...
i will say this: i really fear for the smaller less-established labels who are struggling now trying to hang onto the old system - because that system is long gone...from the front lines, every week is a new experiment
iTunes et al is an effective marketing proposition but to be frank, speaking from experience, the Traxsources, Beatports, Dancetracks Digitals, etc. of the world are far more effective for our current sound right now because they have the audience...the itunes model is the same as walking into a huge music chain store looking for something that you don't know exists...one step further, why would i send everyone to other shops when i have my own where we pull in 100% of the take? well, again, it's the undeniable argument made by a captive audience...
what i would suggest to those who think labels aren't paying attention: help them out - let them know you're out there...if they have a mailing list, GET ON IT...if you're buying online, support them...if you don't see hard stock in the store you frequent, ask about the releases...they are out there...and sometimes there's not enough time or financial incentive for the distributor to sell the stock they've got sitting in their warehouse...
i think you are a bit disingenious here, mass appeal and growth and bringing distinct and diverse groups together without compromise,
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GROOVE VICTIM
Diamond Member
Member # 3019
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by mhd:
its all about delivering the product: modes of distribution
MHD, I understand that you feel as though the music should not be commercialized, but do you think that the process inwhich the music is developed and packaged deserves a shot to be heard by the masses if the maximum market potential to generate a buzz, as well as a few dollars can be generated?
Idea Generation
Idea Screening
Concept Devolopment and Testing
Marketing Strategy Devolopment
Business Analysis
Product Development
test Marketing
"Commercialization"
At some point in time the music being produced goes through these processes, but unfortunatly the last one in quotes is left out. Why is that? Why loose out on the chance to earn top dollar for your work?
Peace
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www.myspace.com/foulsoulrecordings
www.myspace.com/foulsoul_music
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Shalewa
Administrator
Member # 46
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by diaspora:
quote:
Originally posted by Shalewa:
Who you calling we. Kemosabe?
On the real if what is, "just doesn't cut it" for you make something that does. Whether you realize it or not your whole position seems to consist of whining and sniping at folks who see creative and cultural merit in what is and not making a serious statement about what would "cut it" creatively , culturally and commercially for you and articulating what you might do to realize this vision.
whoa...what's with that kinda talk...you pointing your finger while stomping your foot over there?!
'we' equals those who have an appreciation for something...those who contribute in some way...tis but you who've placed value judgements...not I - i'm not talking about creativity lacking in value...creativity is creativty...art is art...there's no other way to objectively define it...so get off that horse and come back to where this all started...
i'm talkin about responding to some messages where people start talking about marketing, etc when they have no idea what that means in our current climate...
how's that for a snipe?
I am not sure what you are trying to communicate. I am reading this over and over and losing what it is you are responding to. Which "people" are you talking about? I sincerely, am curious about where you are coming from, and I am challenging you to articulate a clear vision for what you would like to see House Music look like.
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"...giving in to the fear of feeling and working to capacity is a luxury only the unintentional can afford, and the unintentional are those who do not wish to guide their own destinies." -Audre Lorde
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diaspora
Member
Member # 3991
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by mhd:
i think you are a bit disingenious here, mass appeal and growth and bringing distinct and diverse groups together without compromise,
not at all...i don't think our goals are to take over the world and grab everyone's ear...that's just not realistic...it would of course compromise the vision as u suggest...
this is why we keep trying to figure out how to define our population...be they primary or secondary...it used to be primary DJ but now that's just not sustainable for many reasons...it almost seems like in some ways, they've (DJs) gone back to being a part of our marketing and promotions plan -- the way it used to be before the 'great glut' when everyone was clamouring for records at their local store every week...
as someone else suggested, what we need to be doing is working on the folks who find the sound appealing but aren't enculterated and don't know how to reach the product, digital or otherwise
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mhd
Diamond Member
Member # 18
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by GROOVE VICTIM:
quote:
Originally posted by mhd:
its all about delivering the product: modes of distribution
MHD, I understand that you feel as though the music should not be commercialized, but do you think that the process inwhich the music is developed and packaged deserves a shot to be heard by the masses if the maximum market potential to generate a buzz, as well as a few dollars can be generated?
Idea Generation
Idea Screening
Concept Devolopment and Testing
Marketing Strategy Devolopment
Business Analysis
Product Development
test Marketing
"Commercialization"
At some point in time the music being produced goes through these processes, but unfortunatly the last one in quotes is left out. Why is that? Why loose out on the chance to earn top dollar for your work?
Peace
"masses" "maximum market potential" just not me, the best things in this country are produced by individuals unfettered by "masses". the masses is the worst aspect of american culture. and no one is saying you have to lose your chance to make top dollar, just understand the price you will have to pay to do so. you may have to sell your soul, or you may have to get an mba
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DUBFLY
Member
Member # 5799
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by KBig:
House has "lost its identity" there is no specific "culture" associated with the Music anymore. What we are lacking is an ability to define House's "culture"
Culture= speech,an existence, a way of living, fashion and style specific to a genre or collection of people.
Hip Hop- has a culture
Goth- has a culture
Techno-hs a culture or at lest one is evolving
House- ???? Who are we, What do we do, What is indicative to "us", How do we dress?, yada yada yada...
Fashion divorced House, and married Hip Hop - Steve Stewart 2004.
You cant sell something to the younger generation that isnt define'able and has no specific cultural identity.
Moo Gat Dammit!!
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"In the abundance of water, the fool is thirsty..."
Bob Marley
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diaspora
Member
Member # 3991
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Shalewa:
I am not sure what you are trying to communicate. I am reading this over and over and losing what it is you are responding to. Which "people" are you talking about? I sincerely, am curious about where you are coming from, and I am challenging you to articulate a clear vision for what you would like to see House Music look like.
various replies through the last few pages have referenced what labels/people/whomever 'should' do...it's lovely in theory...and in no way an attack...i just believe that some of the people with some great ideas should get more involved...
a clear vision won't be seen for a little while...that's the issue...i'm not one for 'grass is greener' chat...there is a whole set of conditions that need to be met for things to function really well and part of it is getting back to integrating the distribution channels with the fans/buying public...VERY simple but while we live in post-vinyl/pre-digital limbo, things are touch and go, hand to mouth however u seek to phrase it...
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diaspora
Member
Member # 3991
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by mhd:
you may have to sell your soul, or you may have to get an mba
LOL! a truer statement has yet been said
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martino
Super Star Member
Member # 91
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by JoDe Presser aka Marlon Billups:
quote:
Originally posted by theclubdj:
quote:
Marketing
Promotion to the masses
![[applause]](graemlins/appl.gif) Excellent point
What about having a course at a higher education level (i.e. David Mancuso or Timmy teaching a history course of House Music)? When you look at Jazz, Blues, or any other art form there concepts and history are perpetuated by the Artist willingness to teach the next generation. Thelonious Monk was a professor. Think about it!
if you mean in an institution like a school, then that will be the death certificate.
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http://myspace.com/martinolozej
http://83westprod.com
http://soulstreamnetworks.com
http://iwanaimusic.com
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Shalewa
Administrator
Member # 46
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by GROOVE VICTIM:
quote:
Originally posted by mhd:
its all about delivering the product: modes of distribution
MHD, I understand that you feel as though the music should not be commercialized, but do you think that the process inwhich the music is developed and packaged deserves a shot to be heard by the masses if the maximum market potential to generate a buzz, as well as a few dollars can be generated?
Idea Generation
Idea Screening
Concept Devolopment and Testing
Marketing Strategy Devolopment
Business Analysis
Product Development
test Marketing
"Commercialization"
At some point in time the music being produced goes through these processes, but unfortunatly the last one in quotes is left out. Why is that? Why loose out on the chance to earn top dollar for your work?
Peace
Groove no one is begrudging folks their desire to sell a lot of music. I say work that angle if that is your thing but stop acting like folks have to throw out the baby that is the present audience with the bathwater to do it.
One's ability to market to the widest audience possible is in no way limited by the current audience. Really. The would be impresarion need never, ever reach out towards the current audience if s/he believes the product pitched well can appeal to another one. I doubt that anyone would argue with that and if this impresario were successful there would be a feedback effect where more and more folks would be engaged in this marketing, conceivably growing a larger marketing base for the music beyond the cozy confines of the contemporary underground community.
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"...giving in to the fear of feeling and working to capacity is a luxury only the unintentional can afford, and the unintentional are those who do not wish to guide their own destinies." -Audre Lorde
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mhd
Diamond Member
Member # 18
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by diaspora:
quote:
Originally posted by mhd:
i think you are a bit disingenious here, mass appeal and growth and bringing distinct and diverse groups together without compromise,
not at all...i don't think our goals are to take over the world and grab everyone's ear...that's just not realistic...it would of course compromise the vision as u suggest...
this is why we keep trying to figure out how to define our population...be they primary or secondary...it used to be primary DJ but now that's just not sustainable for many reasons...it almost seems like in some ways, they've (DJs) gone back to being a part of our marketing and promotions plan -- the way it used to be before the 'great glut' when everyone was clamouring for records at their local store every week...
as someone else suggested, what we need to be doing is working on the folks who find the sound appealing but aren't enculterated and don't know how to reach the product, digital or otherwise
had to bring this back: "...Friends holding hands is as good a place to build an empire from as any..." friends = customers. why not replicate your own success, and value the ears that you do have, understand why and grow incrementally. and why the negative implication re 'enculterated'?
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Shalewa
Administrator
Member # 46
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by martino:
quote:
Originally posted by JoDe Presser aka Marlon Billups:
quote:
Originally posted by theclubdj:
quote:
Marketing
Promotion to the masses
Excellent point
What about having a course at a higher education level (i.e. David Mancuso or Timmy teaching a history course of House Music)? When you look at Jazz, Blues, or any other art form there concepts and history are perpetuated by the Artist willingness to teach the next generation. Thelonious Monk was a professor. Think about it!
if you mean in an institution like a school, then that will be the death certificate.
Why?
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"...giving in to the fear of feeling and working to capacity is a luxury only the unintentional can afford, and the unintentional are those who do not wish to guide their own destinies." -Audre Lorde
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diaspora
Member
Member # 3991
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by mhd:
had to bring this back: "...Friends holding hands is as good a place to build an empire from as any..." friends = customers. why not replicate your own success, and value the ears that you do have, understand why and grow incrementally. and why the negative implication re 'enculterated'?
we try to treat our listeners as friends...we try REALLY hard actually...and we can only hope that our decisions reflect that and people respond positively...if we didn't value the ears we have, we wouldn't continue to force the issue with music that trust me so many others have said "man, that's so over...give it up"...
in terms of growing incrementally, that's where our goals lie right now...we want our existing fanbase to grow with us...hopefuly embrace the developments we find equally fascinating...
'enculturation' isn't negative...it's positive...what i was referring to was that some out there are not 'of our sound'...they don't know it and have no clue where to find it...they need induction...and it's all about finding that magical conduit ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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JoDe Presser aka Marlon Billups
Member +
Member # 987
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by martino:
quote:
Originally posted by JoDe Presser aka Marlon Billups:
quote:
Originally posted by theclubdj:
quote:
Marketing
Promotion to the masses
Excellent point
What about having a course at a higher education level (i.e. David Mancuso or Timmy teaching a history course of House Music)? When you look at Jazz, Blues, or any other art form there concepts and history are perpetuated by the Artist willingness to teach the next generation. Thelonious Monk was a professor. Think about it!
if you mean in an institution like a school, then that will be the death certificate.
explain please. I will like to know if this has been tried and failed. Please explain.
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Rhythmik Soul
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Danny Gardner
unregistered
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posted
This five page dynamic seems to be about collectively finding reasons to remain in the game.
That, or finding justification in discontinuing the game.
Cats have to find their own reason.
Building up walls around yourself and referring to said walls as "record label" or "studio" or "underground dance community" or "culture" may substantiate the illusion for others, but when the question "Why am I doing this" hits, none of that will help.
Taken down to its founding thought, its all about the unaccepted fear whether or not there is something better you should be doing.
There is never anything better. The fear of being wrong is a bitch.
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mhd
Diamond Member
Member # 18
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by diaspora:
quote:
Originally posted by mhd:
had to bring this back: "...Friends holding hands is as good a place to build an empire from as any..." friends = customers. why not replicate your own success, and value the ears that you do have, understand why and grow incrementally. and why the negative implication re 'enculterated'?
we try to treat our listeners as friends...we try REALLY hard actually...and we can only hope that our decisions reflect that and people respond positively...if we didn't value the ears we have, we wouldn't continue to force the issue with music that trust me so many others have said "man, that's so over...give it up"...
in terms of growing incrementally, that's where our goals lie right now...we want our existing fanbase to grow with us...hopefuly embrace the developments we find equally fascinating...
'enculturation' isn't negative...it's positive...what i was referring to was that some out there are not 'of our sound'...they don't know it and have no clue where to find it...they need induction...and it's all about finding that magical conduit
i was only half-joking with the mba comment, that's where they teach you that 'magic'. the key is to maintain that 'you' that individual that thinks outside the box culturally and artistically. having said that, do you think its possible to fail as a business model and yet succeed as a cultural ambassador of sorts. see: david mancuso - never lost his base, continues to grow (ableit controlled) through holding hands and hugs and above all else a personal ethic that reveres quality
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diaspora
Member
Member # 3991
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posted
some of us have multiple talents - let's leave it at that
but seriously...i think the two can sometimes be at odds and at other times, they can work well together
[ June 28, 2005, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: diaspora ]
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martino
Super Star Member
Member # 91
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Shalewa:
quote:
Originally posted by martino:
quote:
Originally posted by JoDe Presser aka Marlon Billups:
quote:
Originally posted by theclubdj:
quote:
Marketing
Promotion to the masses
Excellent point
What about having a course at a higher education level (i.e. David Mancuso or Timmy teaching a history course of House Music)? When you look at Jazz, Blues, or any other art form there concepts and history are perpetuated by the Artist willingness to teach the next generation. Thelonious Monk was a professor. Think about it!
if you mean in an institution like a school, then that will be the death certificate.
Why?
Any artform that gets institutionlized essentially gets sterilized. You take it from its vibrant cultural spawning grounds and into the stale text book. See jazz, see visual art.
(not to be confused with things like dance or martial arts or classical music where the learning has always had a formal/institutional structure such as the conservatory etc which is part of its culture).
edit: also this is not to discredit formal structured learning, like lessons and studying the previous masters formally. I'm talking about class rooms and tuitions and exams and that stuff.
[ June 28, 2005, 01:04 PM: Message edited by: martino ]
--------------------
http://myspace.com/martinolozej
http://83westprod.com
http://soulstreamnetworks.com
http://iwanaimusic.com
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Danny Gardner
unregistered
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by mhd:
quote:
Originally posted by diaspora:
quote:
Originally posted by mhd:
had to bring this back: "...Friends holding hands is as good a place to build an empire from as any..." friends = customers. why not replicate your own success, and value the ears that you do have, understand why and grow incrementally. and why the negative implication re 'enculterated'?
we try to treat our listeners as friends...we try REALLY hard actually...and we can only hope that our decisions reflect that and people respond positively...if we didn't value the ears we have, we wouldn't continue to force the issue with music that trust me so many others have said "man, that's so over...give it up"...
in terms of growing incrementally, that's where our goals lie right now...we want our existing fanbase to grow with us...hopefuly embrace the developments we find equally fascinating...
'enculturation' isn't negative...it's positive...what i was referring to was that some out there are not 'of our sound'...they don't know it and have no clue where to find it...they need induction...and it's all about finding that magical conduit
i was only half-joking with the mba comment, that's where they teach you that 'magic'. the key is to maintain that 'you' that individual that thinks outside the box culturally and artistically. having said that, do you think its possible to fail as a business model and yet succeed as a cultural ambassador of sorts. see: david mancuso - never lost his base, continues to grow (ableit controlled) through holding hands and hugs and above all else a personal ethic that reveres quality
That's because he follows his own reason for being in the game. Its about HIM, not a "culture" or "movement" or "industry". Culture and movement may FOLLOW his efforts, but that is the result of others crystallizing his residual value.
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Shalewa
Administrator
Member # 46
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by martino:
quote:
Originally posted by Shalewa:
quote:
Originally posted by martino:
quote:
Originally posted by JoDe Presser aka Marlon Billups:
quote:
Originally posted by theclubdj:
quote:
Marketing
Promotion to the masses
Excellent point
What about having a course at a higher education level (i.e. David Mancuso or Timmy teaching a history course of House Music)? When you look at Jazz, Blues, or any other art form there concepts and history are perpetuated by the Artist willingness to teach the next generation. Thelonious Monk was a professor. Think about it!
if you mean in an institution like a school, then that will be the death certificate.
Why?
Any artform that gets institutionlized essentially gets sterilized. You take it from its vibrant cultural spawning grounds and into the stale text book. See jazz, see visual art.
(not to be confused with things like dance or martial arts or classical music where the learning has always had a formal/institutional structure such as the conservatory etc which is part of its culture).
How do you think dance, martial arts or classical music began? The all began as expressions of personhood and culture and their continuing influence are in large part because at some point their value to humanity was underlined by people making the choice to study, document (just not with too many flash photos and invasive video cameras at dance parties )and explore the aesthetic, intellectual and cultural underpinnings of the forms. I daresay that the move towards accademizing Jazz has served it better than the absence of the efforts of any number of scholar-musicians, musicologists and institution builders would have.
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"...giving in to the fear of feeling and working to capacity is a luxury only the unintentional can afford, and the unintentional are those who do not wish to guide their own destinies." -Audre Lorde
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JoDe Presser aka Marlon Billups
Member +
Member # 987
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by martino:
quote:
Originally posted by Shalewa:
quote:
Originally posted by martino:
quote:
Originally posted by JoDe Presser aka Marlon Billups:
quote:
Originally posted by theclubdj:
quote:
Marketing
Promotion to the masses
Excellent point
What about having a course at a higher education level (i.e. David Mancuso or Timmy teaching a history course of House Music)? When you look at Jazz, Blues, or any other art form there concepts and history are perpetuated by the Artist willingness to teach the next generation. Thelonious Monk was a professor. Think about it!
if you mean in an institution like a school, then that will be the death certificate.
Why?
Any artform that gets institutionlized essentially gets sterilized. You take it from its vibrant cultural spawning grounds and into the stale text book. See jazz, see visual art.
(not to be confused with things like dance or martial arts or classical music where the learning has always had a formal/institutional structure such as the conservatory etc which is part of its culture).
Institutionalize doesn't mean it will become sterile. That will depend upon the institutions putting better professors in the classrooms. Stale text book, I really think this is an incredible false statement. I believe the written word is the most powerful form of carrying forth your message to generation to come. Remember, we are talking about the FUTURE of House Music. Honestly Martino, I will pick-up your book on House Music before your song (i don't know if you produce or not, just trying to make a point). I just think being able to control the history of House Music/Culture will be a very positive move for House Music.
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Rhythmik Soul
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martino
Super Star Member
Member # 91
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by JoDe Presser aka Marlon Billups:
quote:
Originally posted by martino:
quote:
Originally posted by Shalewa:
quote:
Originally posted by martino:
quote:
Originally posted by JoDe Presser aka Marlon Billups:
quote:
Originally posted by theclubdj:
quote:
Marketing
Promotion to the masses
Excellent point
What about having a course at a higher education level (i.e. David Mancuso or Timmy teaching a history course of House Music)? When you look at Jazz, Blues, or any other art form there concepts and history are perpetuated by the Artist willingness to teach the next generation. Thelonious Monk was a professor. Think about it!
if you mean in an institution like a school, then that will be the death certificate.
Why?
Any artform that gets institutionlized essentially gets sterilized. You take it from its vibrant cultural spawning grounds and into the stale text book. See jazz, see visual art.
(not to be confused with things like dance or martial arts or classical music where the learning has always had a formal/institutional structure such as the conservatory etc which is part of its culture).
Institutionalize doesn't mean it will become sterile. That will depend upon the institutions putting better professors in the classrooms. Stale text book, I really think this is an incredible false statement. I believe the written word is the most powerful form of carrying forth your message to generation to come. Remember, we are talking about the FUTURE of House Music. Honestly Martino, I will pick-up your book on House Music before your song (i don't know if you produce or not, just trying to make a point). I just think being able to control the history of House Music/Culture will be a very positive move for House Music.
I will reply to both shalewa and you at the same time.
The "sterlization" is referring to the actual creative process once it's been institutionalized. Not the whole artform. And the fact that the number 1 place to learn things like jazz are classrooms and not clubs is a symptom of the fact that jazz is not in its healthiest state. (hence the death certificate comment).
example:
Yes it is great that america's classical music (jazz) has become academic and its taken as a serious art form. As that is a very important aspect of american culture and such an amazing art form.
Whats not so great is the musicians coming out of these schools. Thats what i'm talking about.
Taking the artist out of the true creative environment, replacing jam sessions at the Blue Note with a classroom doesnt cut it for innovation.
Herbie Hancock studied piano formally. But he didnt study jazz from a text book. He certainly didn't get his funk from a book. Infact, that's a great example. "ok class, today we learn how to be funky". Now replace jazz with underground dance music, and can sort of see where i'm coming from.
The language of any art isn't perfectly translated into a text book. I can learn the funk licks of whoever, but do i truly feel it?
The innovation is what gets sterilized once you take it to the text books. (not the whole artform, i think thats where the confusion came from with my post. Its fine for preserving the language, but not as a spawning ground for innovation)
Dont get me wrong, i'd check out a documentary, read a book, go to a lecture by our masters and pioneers. And i would hope anyone who loves this culture would. But if any scene is depending on an institution to do more than preserve the language of an artform, then in my opinion, it's in trouble.
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http://myspace.com/martinolozej
http://83westprod.com
http://soulstreamnetworks.com
http://iwanaimusic.com
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Palatine William Wilson
Diamond Member
Member # 764
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posted
i'll preface my commentary by saying this: If you're in it to make money - make money, if you're in it for the scenery then enjoy, but dont cry about how no outsiders dig our thing - tell it to The Grateful Dead ( to ride the above hippy dred reference)
That being said
if ya wanna expand the scene and make some cheese, there are only 4 words to know:
"WHERES DA WHITE WIMMMIN"!!!!!!!!!!
gatdammit
see:
Moving Records
Downtown 151
Def Mix
Magic Sessions
and Tangentially ( da black side): Red Parrot
if ya dont know then ya better ask somebody
women make a scene
white chicks make a scene wit money
LEARN
its just that simple
but like John the baptist i been wandering this desert for years
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"You have conquered, and I yield. Yet, henceforward art thou also dead � dead to the World, to Heaven and to Hope! In me didst thou exist � and, in my death, see by this image, which is thine own, how utterly thou hast murdered thyself."
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Palatine William Wilson
Diamond Member
Member # 764
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posted
btw...
i sold my soul
and bought stock in "Soul Glo"
now im "movin on up, to the eastside, to a deluxe apt in the sky"
and i'm yelling out the windows
"WHERES DA WHITE WIMMIN"!!!!!!!!!!
and then being questioned at midtown north as being the Eastside Rapist
lol
--------------------
"You have conquered, and I yield. Yet, henceforward art thou also dead � dead to the World, to Heaven and to Hope! In me didst thou exist � and, in my death, see by this image, which is thine own, how utterly thou hast murdered thyself."
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