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Author
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Topic: Did the Newjack swing kill R&B music?
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Phyllis Hyman Cherry
Gold Member
Member # 11109
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posted
Prior to Newjack swing R&B was R&B and rap was rap.NewJack swing intermixed everything which has had a direct effect on todays R&B music.
It seems the only true R&B music really is Neo SOUL.
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Mike Johnson
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Member # 467
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posted
To the contrary.....
Before New Jack Swing came along, R&B, as it was in the mid-late 80's had become very formulaic and was very pop oriented - in other words, it sucked big time, with the exception of some of the Jimmy Jam - Terry Lewis productions. New Jack (premised on old James Brown drum patterns and back beats) brought the grit back to R&B. The fact that there was a fusion of r&b and rap had nothing to do with R&B's later demise, if that's what you're saying. The fusion was a natural progression, because rap was forging its way into mainstream black music - it even forged its way into house with the whole hip-house movement in the late 80's. By the early-mid 90's, when New Jack had pretty much run its course, R&B was once again going downward - and rap was taking reign with the youth. However, thanks to Puff Daddy and his sample craze of old R&B songs, there was a breath of life back into R&B with what he was producing, and the artists he was producing for (Mary J. and the whole Bad Boy clique). Other producers like Dallas Austin and Dark Child would keep R&B afloat, but R&B was becoming secondary to rap with the youth. Neo-Soul is pretty much a style for a more mature audience who wants R&B but without all of the rah-rah that had become commonplace in the mainstream R&B / rap music of the day.
[ June 14, 2007, 07:06 AM: Message edited by: Mike Johnson ]
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Myron
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Member # 626
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posted
Honestly I haven't really enjoyed R&B since New Jack Swing came along. After that the beats became slower and the musical arrangements became less interesting. Neo Soul was decent when it came along but what's left of it is very formulaic and boring (and some may argue became Adult Contemporary). Right now, there really much that's interesting musically as far as musical desendants (sp) of Soul.
Myron
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tony winter
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posted
Yes! It kinda started with hip hop beats infused with lyrics ala Soul 2 Soul (which was very good don't get me wrong), but after that it seemed like everybody just ran with it. It just went , imo, in a bad direction.
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Free Russell
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Member # 6381
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Johnson:
To the contrary.....
Before New Jack Swing came along, R&B, as it was in the mid-late 80's had become very formulaic and was very pop oriented - in other words, it sucked big time, with the exception of some of the Jimmy Jam - Terry Lewis productions. New Jack (premised on old James Brown drum patterns and back beats) brought the grit back to R&B. The fact that there was a fusion of r&b and rap had nothing to do with R&B's later demise, if that's what you're saying. The fusion was a natural progression, because rap was forging its way into mainstream black music - it even forged its way into house with the whole hip-house movement in the late 80's. By the early-mid 90's, when New Jack had pretty much run its course, R&B was once again going downward - and rap was taking reign with the youth. However, thanks to Puff Daddy and his sample craze of old R&B songs, there was a breath of life back into R&B with what he was producing, and the artists he was producing for (Mary J. and the whole Bad Boy clique). Other producers like Dallas Austin and Dark Child would keep R&B afloat, but R&B was becoming secondary to rap with the youth. Neo-Soul is pretty much a style for a more mature audience who wants R&B but without all of the rah-rah that had become commonplace in the mainstream R&B / rap music of the day.
This is the answer; it was inevitable. Most forms of music & their creators have their day, eventually become stale and are replaced, just as house followed NY club. As part of the symptom, existing forms became over-produced, superceeded by low-fi alternatives AKA rawer interpretations.
No, i don't like the new soundz as much but in each case the original form becomes too predictable and ripe for change. New jack and house were the agents of change.
[ June 14, 2007, 08:57 AM: Message edited by: Free Russell ]
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upliftdisco365
Platinum Member +
Member # 114
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Johnson:
To the contrary.....
Before New Jack Swing came along, R&B, as it was in the mid-late 80's had become very formulaic and was very pop oriented - in other words, it sucked big time...
HAHAHAHA!!! Word, Mike.
But while the music sucked pre-New Jack, it still had melodic content that involved some actual composition. Much of it was bad music, but it was music nonetheless.
New Jack ushered in a wave of Leviathan scale sucking; the likes of which black composers, artists and audiences had never before seen. I remember staring at my radio in disbelief when "All I Wanna Do is Zooma-zoom-zoom widda boom-boom" came out of my speakers. I knew that these would be my last days of listening to the large urban markets on the radio and to black pop through all media. Lately, it denegrates more with each passing day. "Laffy Taffy" Yeah. Grown-ups at parties throwing their hands up to this or chanting along enthusiastically, "TILL THE SWEAT DRIP DOWN MY BALLS!!!"
"...Lemme tell you how I met y'mama..."
[ June 14, 2007, 09:44 AM: Message edited by: upliftdisco365 ]
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TAB.
Platinum Member
Member # 1024
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posted
The shit fell off around 84-85. I think Frankie Beverly had the last good R&B cut of that era. After that just whacked ass recordings with 'mechanical' arrangements. A few exceptions but the richness in sound just dried up. I haven't liked 'Urban' music in over 20 years. The New Jack, and Neo soul stuff don't even cut it for me. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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Free Russell
Star Member +
Member # 6381
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by upliftdisco365:
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Johnson:
To the contrary.....
Before New Jack Swing came along, R&B, as it was in the mid-late 80's had become very formulaic and was very pop oriented - in other words, it sucked big time...
HAHAHAHA!!! Word, Mike.
But while the music sucked pre-New Jack, it still had melodic content that involved some actually composition. Much of it was bad music, but it was music nonetheless.
New Jack ushered in a wave of Leviathan scale sucking; the likes of which black composers, artists and audiences had never before seen. I remember staring at my radio in disbelief when "All I Wanna Do is Zooma-zoom-zoom widda boom-boom" came out of my speakers. I knew that these would be my last days of listening to the large urban markets on the radio and to black pop through all media. Lately, it denegrates more with each passing day. "Laffy Taffy" Yeah. Grown-ups at parties throwing their hands up to this or chanting along enthusiastically, "TILL THE SWEAT DRIP DOWN MY BALLS!!!"
"...Lemme tell you how I met y'mama..."
Ya a lot of the music content was lost, but it was considered a refreshing more minimal approach across the board: in mainstream radio and club that paralled rap and hip-hop, through new jack and house. Plus the new generation didn't care and didn't have the same musical foundations, and could make the music on machines without being players with musical foundations.
[ June 14, 2007, 09:06 AM: Message edited by: Free Russell ]
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upliftdisco365
Platinum Member +
Member # 114
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Free Russell:
quote:
Originally posted by upliftdisco365:
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Johnson:
To the contrary.....
Before New Jack Swing came along, R&B, as it was in the mid-late 80's had become very formulaic and was very pop oriented - in other words, it sucked big time...
HAHAHAHA!!! Word, Mike.
But while the music sucked pre-New Jack, it still had melodic content that involved some actual composition. Much of it was bad music, but it was music nonetheless.
New Jack ushered in a wave of Leviathan scale sucking; the likes of which black composers, artists and audiences had never before seen. I remember staring at my radio in disbelief when "All I Wanna Do is Zooma-zoom-zoom widda boom-boom" came out of my speakers. I knew that these would be my last days of listening to the large urban markets on the radio and to black pop through all media. Lately, it denegrates more with each passing day. "Laffy Taffy" Yeah. Grown-ups at parties throwing their hands up to this or chanting along enthusiastically, "TILL THE SWEAT DRIP DOWN MY BALLS!!!"
"...Lemme tell you how I met y'mama..."
Ya a lot of the music content was lost, but it was considered a refreshing more minimal approach across the board: in mainstream radio and club that paralled rap and hip-hop, through new jack and house. Plus the new generation didn't care and didn't have the same musical foundations, and could make the music on machines without being players with musical foundations.
Agreed. Today's composers operate from a completely different place than their predecessors. But music is music. The same can be said for the absence thereof. While I can acknowledge that technology and certain social shifts have brought us to this point in Popular Urban Music, I can't let this generation of composers off the hook for writing music that isn't really music at all.
Sales of this music and the success of the artists is at an all time high, DEFINITELY due in part to the fact that the vast world is now just a global village. Remember going down south and showing off your hot, new kicks that weren't yet out down there? Now guys in Istanbul have hotter kicks than you.
This new global media over exposes everything, good and bad. Publicity and advertisement in this new world are more important than the content of what's being peddled. J-Lo? Ashley Simpson? Paris Hilton? Pay enough money and generate your own icon.
Which brings us back to today's R&B. The kids call this music old after two weeks. That's all it takes to chew the weak flavor from these pedestrian songs before losing the CD under your dusty bed and moving on to the next new thing to churn and burn. This new music is destroying the music collector concept among young people. These songs have no value beyond their first bright flash. How many 18-25 year olds are bumping their favorite joints from last year? Probably not too many.
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Free Russell
Star Member +
Member # 6381
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by upliftdisco365:
quote:
Originally posted by Free Russell:
quote:
Originally posted by upliftdisco365:
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Johnson:
To the contrary.....
Before New Jack Swing came along, R&B, as it was in the mid-late 80's had become very formulaic and was very pop oriented - in other words, it sucked big time...
HAHAHAHA!!! Word, Mike.
But while the music sucked pre-New Jack, it still had melodic content that involved some actual composition. Much of it was bad music, but it was music nonetheless.
New Jack ushered in a wave of Leviathan scale sucking; the likes of which black composers, artists and audiences had never before seen. I remember staring at my radio in disbelief when "All I Wanna Do is Zooma-zoom-zoom widda boom-boom" came out of my speakers. I knew that these would be my last days of listening to the large urban markets on the radio and to black pop through all media. Lately, it denegrates more with each passing day. "Laffy Taffy" Yeah. Grown-ups at parties throwing their hands up to this or chanting along enthusiastically, "TILL THE SWEAT DRIP DOWN MY BALLS!!!"
"...Lemme tell you how I met y'mama..."
Ya a lot of the music content was lost, but it was considered a refreshing more minimal approach across the board: in mainstream radio and club that paralled rap and hip-hop, through new jack and house. Plus the new generation didn't care and didn't have the same musical foundations, and could make the music on machines without being players with musical foundations.
Agreed. Today's composers operate from a completely different place than their predecessors. But music is music. The same can be said for the absence thereof. While I can acknowledge that technology and certain social shifts have brought us to this point in Popular Urban Music, I can't let this generation of composers off the hook for writing music that isn't really music at all.
Sales of this music and the success of the artists is at an all time high, DEFINITELY due in part to the fact that the vast world is now just a global village. Remember going down south and showing off your hot, new kicks that weren't yet out down there? Now guys in Istanbul have hotter kicks than you.
This new global media over exposes everything, good and bad. Publicity and advertisement in this new world are more important than the content of what's being peddled. J-Lo? Ashley Simpson? Paris Hilton? Pay enough money and generate your own icon.
Which brings us back to today's R&B. The kids call this music old after two weeks. That's all it takes to chew the weak flavor from these pedestrian songs before losing the CD under your dusty bed and moving on to the next new thing to churn and burn. This new music is destroying the music collector concept among young people. These songs have no value beyond their first bright flash. How many 18-25 year olds are bumping their favorite joints from last year? Probably not too many.
Not just music-the dilution of TV, movies, sports, etc. Hopefully it goes in cycles, which might mean that eventually the great new technology will combine with a higher level of quality in future though it's not certain.
One thing I CAN say, using house as an example that might transfer to other mediums: the percentage of quality is at an all-time low, much lower than before HOWEVER with digging and perserverence there IS still quality out there, hidden.
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D J 1 3 8
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Member # 2421
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posted
I couldn't stand mid 80s R&B. Freddy Jackson and the like. It all seemed incredibly weak with god-awful synth sounds and watered down Teddy Pendergrass lyrics.
Being a hip hop head, New Jack Swing, and then Mary J/R Kelly, was the first R&B music that I could tolerate since the early 80s.
With Hip Hop being the dominant form of pop music, it's only natural that R&B has stayed closely tethered to it, remaining primarily sample-based.
I think neo-soul remains a small genre because there are very few people who come along who are talented enough to write music for a live band and create their own sound.
Seems like were all still waiting for the next Marvin. The next Stevie. When I first met Maxwell, before his first album, I thought he really might be one of those cats. Then I don't know WTF happened. D'angelo can potentially still do some damage if he can just ease up on the drugs for a minute.
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Myron
Platinum Member
Member # 626
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by D J 1 3 8:
I couldn't stand mid 80s R&B. Freddy Jackson and the like. It all seemed incredibly weak with god-awful synth sounds and watered down Teddy Pendergrass lyrics.
Being a hip hop head, New Jack Swing, and then Mary J/R Kelly, was the first R&B music that I could tolerate since the early 80s.
With Hip Hop being the dominant form of pop music, it's only natural that R&B has stayed closely tethered to it, remaining primarily sample-based.
I think neo-soul remains a small genre because there are very few people who come along who are talented enough to write music for a live band and create their own sound.
Seems like were all still waiting for the next Marvin. The next Stevie. When I first met Maxwell, before his first album, I thought he really might be one of those cats. Then I don't know WTF happened. D'angelo can potentially still do some damage if he can just ease up on the drugs for a minute.
Maybe that's the problem, we're waiting for the next ________, rather than waiting for something fresh and interesting.
Or maybe we're just old foogies. ![[rofl]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
Myron
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Fletch
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Member # 2607
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posted
No way New Jack killed R&B!
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Free Russell
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Member # 6381
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by D J 1 3 8:
I couldn't stand mid 80s R&B. Freddy Jackson and the like. It all seemed incredibly weak with god-awful synth sounds and watered down Teddy Pendergrass lyrics.
Being a hip hop head, New Jack Swing, and then Mary J/R Kelly, was the first R&B music that I could tolerate since the early 80s.
With Hip Hop being the dominant form of pop music, it's only natural that R&B has stayed closely tethered to it, remaining primarily sample-based.
I think neo-soul remains a small genre because there are very few people who come along who are talented enough to write music for a live band and create their own sound.
Seems like were all still waiting for the next Marvin. The next Stevie. When I first met Maxwell, before his first album, I thought he really might be one of those cats. Then I don't know WTF happened. D'angelo can potentially still do some damage if he can just ease up on the drugs for a minute.
Each wave eventually is played out. You can still find much of the old vibe & quality through a willingness to go through large volumes of crap R&B, smooth jazz (where a lot of the old musicians and studio cats went), or house.
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Phyllis Hyman Cherry
Gold Member
Member # 11109
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posted
Alot of what yall are saying is making perfect sense.
I was happy when Kindred the family soul came out but they had one song that made some noise then disappeared.The list goes on and on Donnie,Zap Mama,Goapele.In todays music climate,these floks might not have the zaza-zoom factor it takes to make it big.
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Johnnie Mo
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Member # 6350
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posted
no more creativity in most music nowadays.Most of us grew up listening to people playing live instruments. There was a beginning, middle and ending to the songs we grew up on, with the ending sometimes being a total different melody and sometimes more intense. I believe the shift to all electronic(mostly sampling) killed that warm sound that touched the soul from just the first few notes @ the beginning of the music. I've seen people literally crying from hearing a song, don't get me wrong but i don't see that type of reaction that much from SOME of the newer R & B.
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Free Russell
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by john9:
no more creativity in most music nowadays.Most of us grew up listening to people playing live instruments. There was a beginning, middle and ending to the songs we grew up on, with the ending sometimes being a total different melody and sometimes more intense. I believe the shift to all electronic(mostly sampling) killed that warm sound that touched the soul from just the first few notes @ the beginning of the music. I've seen people literally crying from hearing a song, don't get me wrong but i don't see that type of reaction that much from SOME of the newer R & B.
I'm up on the technology and followed the changes, beginning in the early 80s. This is part of it, because music like house allowed amateurs in and vastly increased the volume of those creating music. That's part of why there is more music now out but a much smaller amount of good music, combined with a smaller degree of musical training, background, ability and changed tastes.
But there is still a smaller percentage of great music out there from those able to combine machines and singing.
[ June 14, 2007, 10:56 AM: Message edited by: Free Russell ]
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D J 1 3 8
Diamond Member
Member # 2421
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posted
Love him or hate him, R Kelly is the closest thing we have to Marvin /Stevie in terms of superstar status and prolific song-writing. Does he measure up? of course not. But he is a multi-platinum mega-star who can play Madison Square Garden. He has written some incredibly huge songs. And he has had a 15 year career that isn't going away anytime soon. Marvin's career only lasted 23 years, cut short as we all know.
Will people be listening to "I Believe I can fly" in 20 years? Actually I think they just might.
One thing that seems to be missing in the R Kelly's of our day is that they never mature beyond their pop hits. Marvin didn't come out the gate with "What's Going On". He made light-hearted pop music at first, and only later did he evolve in to something much deeper and profound. Today's singers do the pop thing as long as they can, then fall the fuck off.
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Kamiwa
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Member # 6691
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posted
Very interesting comments! I think we need to consider the target audience of this newer r&b---peeps who are 30yrs of age plus are NOT it. I would be curious to hear the opinions of younger folks on how they view the music that many of us feel is garbage. I can remember my father, for example, not understanding how/why on Earth I liked house music. He did NOT get it. Hip-hop too for that matter. I wonder how much of my and others' distaste for current "popular" r&b stems from the fact that we are not in that target audience anymore. Someone who is 18 yrs. old singing about getting his freak on is not going to appeal to me, but may set some teenage girl's soul on fire. Everything is relative.
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Myron
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Silky Soul 1977:
Alot of what yall are saying is making perfect sense.
I was happy when Kindred the family soul came out but they had one song that made some noise then disappeared.The list goes on and on Donnie,Zap Mama,Goapele.In todays music climate,these floks might not have the zaza-zoom factor it takes to make it big.
That's the thing, nothing really has the "zaza-zoom" factor these days and that's where neo-soul failed.
Myron
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RAS
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Member # 3426
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posted
Rap music's killed R&B. Just like it's killed everything/everyone else. ![[Idontknow]](graemlins/conf44.gif)
[ June 14, 2007, 01:02 PM: Message edited by: RAS ]
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D J 1 3 8
Diamond Member
Member # 2421
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kamiwa:
Very interesting comments! I think we need to consider the target audience of this newer r&b---peeps who are 30yrs of age plus are NOT it. I would be curious to hear the opinions of younger folks on how they view the music that many of us feel is garbage. I can remember my father, for example, not understanding how/why on Earth I liked house music. He did NOT get it. Hip-hop too for that matter. I wonder how much of my and others' distaste for current "popular" r&b stems from the fact that we are not in that target audience anymore. Someone who is 18 yrs. old singing about getting his freak on is not going to appeal to me, but may set some teenage girl's soul on fire. Everything is relative.
Re: us not being the target audience, this is certainly true. We are old and irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.
Today's R&B appeals to kids who's musical taste is rooted in Hip Hop. Samples and drum machines and the most basic of synth patterns. So they don't have the love of a live band that the older generation like us came to expect from soul music. They basically want Hip Hop sounding music that is sexy, which is why Usher & R Kelly do so well.
Being a hip hop head, I really do like some of the current stuff. I just had to adjust my expectations. If you hold it up to Marvin and Stevie it will pale in comparison, obviously. Yet you watch an usher concert on Showtime and young girls are screaming just like they did at the London Pallladium in 1976.
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djmarbll
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posted
New Jack Swing didn't do anything worse to R&B that the "south" sound isn't doing now. When it works you run it into the ground, which holds true for ANY form of music. With New Jack, Teddy Riley became the new Quincy, and he was then replaced by Timbaland as the hot producer. The same cycles repeat themselves, but Riley hasn't been able to recover from the changing sounds of time like Timbaland has. Timbaland had even led the changes in musical sound at least a couple times and is still the hottest producer on earth right now.
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